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So, my bishop (who actually listens to me) has asked me to give a 7-10 minute talk in 3 weeks. And he wants it to be on what the atonement means to me. No pressure there. Here’s where I come to pick the brains of you guys. I have time to put together a talk and I want it to come from a more nuanced place. I don’t want it to be from lds.org’s dictionary definition. I think that’s what the other speakers will be doing. Bleh.
I want to be able to use words that will reach those in the audience who might not have that perfect knowledge that everybody else seems to have when they talk about the atonement.
So, whaddaya got?
Just a few thoughts in just a few minutes. I will try to flesh out a bit more, but one thing that comes to mind is that if we have to see that God intended us to be broken – not perfect. If we see the atonement for “those other guys that sin all the time” then we are not getting it. But that isn’t to say that the homeless broken person might FEEL the atonement more profoundly.
I think of a loving heavenly father that saw/knew just how totally imperfect we are and still loves us. Just like parents love their kids, but they see their shortcomings (at least most do). God isn’t that parent that keeps telling their kid, “I knew you would fail you good for nothing”. Instead I think he is the parent that has his hand out ready to lift us up, but we often don’t take it.
Look up Brad Wilcox talks on Grace and equate some of the “grace” to the equivalent of “atonement”. He talks a lot about how grace isn’t to cover that little gap between the majority of OUR efforts and us coming a bit short of perfection – it is to cover the HUGE gap of our imperfections where our efforts are a small sliver. Maybe Adam Miller’s “Grace is not God’s backup plan” or even something out of his “letters to a young Mormon” (I will try and look and see if I can look that up tonight and see if there is a chapter in there).
If you want to be bold, you can give examples of prophets needing the atonement. Start by talking about prophets of old that messed up (David, Jonah) and then even talk about how some latter-day prophets have messed up or had doubt (See comments on David O. McKay not feeling like he had a testimony and in the middle of nowhere he got off his horse and prayed, or
Here is something to talk about a modern(ish) prophet having a drinking problem
Quote:I find Heber J Grant’s experience somewhat enlightening. As a youth, Heber struggled with what he considered an unhealthy addiction to coffee. “Time after time he quit, only to find his appetite uncontrollable.” His remedy for overcoming the addiction was unusual: “I have promised myself a number of times that I would quit,” he said. But “now I have said I am going to take a cup of coffee whenever I want it and I haven’t drank any for months.” Did you catch that? He simply caved.
Later in life Heber apparently struggled with an alcohol addiction. Needing to gain weight in order to qualify for a life insurance policy, his doctor simply prescribed beer. “At first Heber found beer ‘bitter and distasteful’…but he quickly acquired both a business and a personal taste for it. Within a year, he secured the fire insurance business of most Salt Lake City saloons and Utah breweries, an additional ten pounds, and a growing relish for the savor of hops. His daily four-glass limit became five, and occasionally grew to six.” In time, however, young Heber began to “war with his acute sense of conscience” and resolved to stop drinking.
Oooh, yeah. See, already this is good stuff with just one person commenting. Keep it up, please. If it all goes according to my plans, this will be the greatest talk in history, written by all of you guys.
LookingHard wrote:Here is something to talk about a modern(ish) prophet having a drinking problem
Quote:I find Heber J Grant’s experience somewhat enlightening. As a youth, Heber struggled with what he considered an unhealthy addiction to coffee. “Time after time he quit, only to find his appetite uncontrollable.” His remedy for overcoming the addiction was unusual: “I have promised myself a number of times that I would quit,” he said. But “now I have said I am going to take a cup of coffee whenever I want it and I haven’t drank any for months.” Did you catch that? He simply caved.
Later in life Heber apparently struggled with an alcohol addiction. Needing to gain weight in order to qualify for a life insurance policy, his doctor simply prescribed beer. “At first Heber found beer ‘bitter and distasteful’…but he quickly acquired both a business and a personal taste for it. Within a year, he secured the fire insurance business of most Salt Lake City saloons and Utah breweries, an additional ten pounds, and a growing relish for the savor of hops. His daily four-glass limit became five, and occasionally grew to six.” In time, however, young Heber began to “war with his acute sense of conscience” and resolved to stop drinking.
That’s an interesting paragraph or two. Did that come from a book?I wonder if that experience he had let to his feelings later as he held leadership positions, being called to the Q12 in his 20s.
Wiki says this:
Quote:His administration also emphasized the practice of the LDS health code known as the Word of Wisdom. During the early 1900s, general authorities differed in their observance of the proscription against beer, wine, tobacco, coffee and tea, but among the apostles Grant was one of the most vocal in opposing these substances. In 1921, Grant’s administration made adherence to the health code compulsory for advancement in the priesthood or for entrance to temples. Grant also spoke out in favor of the Utah state prohibition movement, which occurred around the same time.
That may be an aside to the atonement talk, or it may apply on how people change. I like talks with interesting stories of things we haven’t heard of before.
I think about the Atonement a lot. It usually involves arguing with God. I’m a Father & a Grand. I have difficulty understand why it’s necessary to sacrifice His Son?
Isn’t there other ways to fulfill His ultimate Plan?
By nature & personality, I constantly ask questions.
The only answer that makes sense is: you don’t always have to understand, you have to accept.
Then the question comes: do you accept?
And I take the sacrament.
I would make your talk as simple & clear as possible.
Please report back. I would LOVE to hear the final product.
Heber13 wrote:LookingHard wrote:Here is something to talk about a modern(ish) prophet having a drinking problem
Quote:I find Heber J Grant’s experience somewhat enlightening. As a youth, Heber struggled with what he considered an unhealthy addiction to coffee. “Time after time he quit, only to find his appetite uncontrollable.” His remedy for overcoming the addiction was unusual: “I have promised myself a number of times that I would quit,” he said. But “now I have said I am going to take a cup of coffee whenever I want it and I haven’t drank any for months.” Did you catch that? He simply caved.
Later in life Heber apparently struggled with an alcohol addiction. Needing to gain weight in order to qualify for a life insurance policy, his doctor simply prescribed beer. “At first Heber found beer ‘bitter and distasteful’…but he quickly acquired both a business and a personal taste for it. Within a year, he secured the fire insurance business of most Salt Lake City saloons and Utah breweries, an additional ten pounds, and a growing relish for the savor of hops. His daily four-glass limit became five, and occasionally grew to six.” In time, however, young Heber began to “war with his acute sense of conscience” and resolved to stop drinking.
That’s an interesting paragraph or two. Did that come from a book?I saw it on
http://www.dovesandserpents.org/wp/2014/03/heber-j-grant-beer-and-sexual-morality/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.dovesandserpents.org/wp/2014/03/heber-j-grant-beer-and-sexual-morality/ Ronald W. Walker, “Young Heber J. Grant’s Years of Passage,” BYU Studies, Vol. 24, No. 2, Spring 1984
I don’t have the book itself.
on the doves blog, the book actually links to
https://byustudies.byu.edu/journal and if you then search for that book, you will get tohttps://byustudies.byu.edu/journal/journal-242https://byustudies.byu.edu/journal/journal-242” class=”bbcode_url”> 
Shooting from the hip… I’d talk about reflecting on how we try to atone with other people in our lives; both with people that owe us debts and with people to whom we owe debts. How we interact with those people might tell us something about how we believe the Atonement will operate in our lives. If that causes us to worry a little perhaps that’s an indication that we should change how we interact with others.
I haven’t given it much thought. With talks I tend to operate under pressure, the ideas don’t come until the night before and the ideas that came early on (like this one) are scrapped.
Three cheers for a talk and a broad topic. You can run miles with that. Atonement – it’s changed for me. It’s an idea of peace for me. Did Jesus need to die? I don’t know, whether he did or didn’t I appreciate the intent. I am learning to embrace my humanness. To me that is atoning. I am letting my dark and light side’s exist together. Condemning neither one or giving one too much credit. I think for an LDS crowd the brokenness idea that we’ve thrown out here is good. New idea’s come best a piece at a time. In that vein I will add a list/poem my cousin used yesterday at church. If it works for your feel free to borrow it.
Quote:If God can use these people He can certainly use you and me.
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After all…
Noah was a drunk
Abraham was too old
Isaac was a daydreamer
Jacob was a liar
Leah was ugly
Joseph was abused
Moses had a stuttering problem
Gideon was afraid
Samson had long hair and was a womanizer
Rahab was a prostitute
Jeremiah was too young
David was an adulterer (not to mention a murderer)
Elijah was suicidal
Isaiah preached naked
Jonah ran from God
Naomi was a widow
Job went bankrupt
John the Baptist ate bugs
Andrew lived in the shadow of his big brother
Peter denied Christ
All the disciples fell asleep while praying (and ran away when Jesus really needed them.)
Martha worried about everything
The Samaritan woman was divorced (more than once)
Mary Magdalene was demon-possessed
Zaccheus was too small
Timothy had an ulcer
Paul was a Christian-killer
Oh…and Lazarus was dead
When I talk about the atonement, and I usually link it to the sacrament, I focus on the sacrifice itself. I read from the scripture generally with a little dramatic effect. I mix up the four gospels, picking the most impactful parts from each, starting with the last supper and ending with the resurrection. In seven minutes you could do nothing else but read scripture and perhaps bear a heartfelt testimony and have given an excellent talk. Two things: 1) Jesus proved he beleived in “at-one-ment” specifically by reaching out to and serving/blessing/loving the people in his society whom everyone else despised and avoided. Who are they in our lives – the people we or our friends/associates avoid and condemn? Are we reaching to them and serving/blessing/loving them, no matter what our society says or how it sees them? I actually have listed groups of people in talks I have given in the past: drunks, pregnant teenagers, prostitutes, LGBT, the homeless, the chronically ill, immigrants, refugees, Muslims, etc. (It isn’t that they all are horrible sinners but rather that they all are marginalized, judged, and condemned by lots of people.)
2) There are 89 posts on my personal blog about Atonement. Feel free to peruse them and use anything you find there.
Geez, Ray. I only have three weeks….. My favorite allegory for the atonement is the story of “Beauty and the Beast”. Once upon a time, there was a prince. He was a mean, spiteful, selfish, concieted, littly boy. You shouldn’t judge him too harshly, though. He was born into royalty, always given what he wanted (spoiled), and some might even say he was simply born that way. He was a prince by birth; but that was really all that was prince-like about him.
One rainy night, an old woman came to his door. She asked him for a bit of food to eat, and shelter from the storm. The bratty prince turned her away. Suddenly, she stripped off her disguise, and revealed herself to be a powerful sorceress. She told the prince that she would make him as ugly and monsterous on the outside, as his was on the inside. She turned the prince into the form of the terrible monster he really was. She then explained to the boy, that he would always remain this way UNLESS, somehow, he could become a good-natured, virtuous, loveable sort of fellow. He had to learn to care about others, outside his own selfish world. Only then, could he become the prince he was always meant to be.
But the prince was an awful monster, both inside and out. And for many years he stayed that way.
Then, one day, a girl came along. At first, she hated the beast. He was selfish, brutish, and ugly. But being wise, she also tried to look for the good in him. Deep down, she knew he was born to be a prince. And so she began to treat him like one. And the beast, not wanting to remain a beast forever, decided he would try to be as prince-like as he could.Though he was short-tempered, he tried to be more forgiving. Though he was selfish, he tried to be more kind. While at first, it was fruitless efforts and a lot of pretending, little by little, he started to develop those qualities a true prince would have.
BUT he was still and awful, ugly monster. There is no way he could change his form and turn back into a prince on his own; no matter how hard he tried. Until, one day a power outside himself was able to transform him, and he was at last able to become the prince he was always meant to be.
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Commentary: We are all children of our Heavenly Father, and all have a divine birthright. But deep down, each of us nothing more than an awful monster. We are selfish, prideful, lustful, envious, lazy, prone to anger, and have little self control. Who knows how we got this way? It may be because of our our environment, or the influence of those around us, and sometimes maybe it’s just the way we were born. There is very little that is divine within us.
Fortunately for us, we don’t have to stay that way forever. Jesus Christ provided the magic we need to turn us into the prince or princess we were always meant to be. It is a free gift, never earned. And we can never hope to change our monsterous natures without it. It’d be easier for you to turn a tin soldier into a human being, than to turn a human being into a god.
But Christ can do it all, whenever he liked. What he asks of us first is that we try. We pretend to be a decent sort of person. We try to keep the commandments, to follow his example. And we fail. And we try. And we fail. And we try… and eventually we get better at failing. We pick ourselves up again, and we keep going. And eventually, we start to develop those qualities we truly desire. We become a little better. But deep down, we are still just an awful monster, just a little better than before.
That’s where the grace of Christ comes in. He bestows the strength and power of the atonment, which physically and spiritually transforms us. It’s more miraculous than the beast turning back into a prince, and a more complete transformation. It makes, and will make us into the Children of God we were always meant to be.
I have not listened to them yet, but there are some podcasts on Mormon matters released just today with the title of “mercy and the atonement “ Just some late night thoughts: So often we talk of the atonement as being a relationship between ourselves and God — To be at one with God. When we look at actual doctrine of eternal relationships, a different way to look at the atonement is seen. The atonement is a state of being as one with humanity before God. When we have reached a point of helping, aiding, and loving people, when we can truly love and aid all of God’s children without concern for their color, nationality, religion, addictions, or legal status. At that point, we are living the atonement of God.
I don’t think we achieve atonement .. If we are living as God would like us to, we LIVE the atonement. We become one with our community as we give of ourselves.
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