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I’ve really started to get irritated at the way people in the church talk about people who have left or at least become inactive. I used to be one of those people when I was a TBM and thought I’d never struggle with the church, but now that I’m struggling, and know some of the stories of you good people of StayLDS, it bothers me A LOT when I hear the way members talk about people who stop going to church. A lot of times it seems like they think we must have been weak, or easily offended and just left over something small. I think some reasons they may do it is because 1) maybe they have never struggled with the church 2) they want to think they’re immune to leaving by making it seem like we were just ridiculous 3) the people who have left the church aren’t there to explain what happened to them so people don’t know many personal stories. Those were just some reasons that came to mind for possibilities for why they talk that way about people who stop going to church. Anyways, it really bothers me, and in my ward it has come up multiple times the last couple sundays. Idk what to do about it though. One idea I have is sharing my experience or maybe a story I know from here and use it in the context of ‘I have a family member who had all this happen and they really struggled with it over time and didn’t want to leave the church but things became too painful for them. It wasn’t a split second decision….yada yada’ something along those lines to give another perspective without saying how much I’m struggling with the church. Idk, I just feel like it’s unfair for them to talk about people struggling, the way they do. What could be some ways to bring up this type of thing in class if it ever comes up again? This was also shared on facebook recently by two members and really bothered me 
[img]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160826/6e6c863f418096dc9f22e08422170181.jpg [/img] The people posting this were making comments like ‘maybe this will be a comfort to some of my friends and family’ and the people who were liking the picture were lots of strong members, from the people I recognized. I don’t see how this would be a comforting picture to people struggling with the church. I see what they’re trying to say, but at the same time, it doesn’t empathize with the things that person struggles with. And if someones job or a family member was causing these types of difficulties to someone, they may leave. Family members and jobs are not the same things as church. Church is supposed to be a nice place and it’s an extracurricular activity so obviously if you aren’t feeling fulfilled from it or just don’t believe what is being taught, why would you stay? Idk, I just wanted to share that as an example too for the way members talk about people who leave church
Post this saying that you understand what this is saying and it applies to some, but for some this can come off as judging. President Utchdorf said that people not all that leave do so because they were offended. http://www.ldsliving.com/President-Monson-Challenges-Latter-day-Saints-to-Stop-Judging-Start-Loving-One-Another/s/82947 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.ldsliving.com/President-Monson-Challenges-Latter-day-Saints-to-Stop-Judging-Start-Loving-One-Another/s/82947 (credit to mom3 for finding it)
Thanks for that! Do you have a link for the talk where Uchtdorf talks about people not leaving over being offended? I can’t seem to find that https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng Quote:The search for truth has led millions of people to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, there are some who leave the Church they once loved.
One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”
Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.
Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.
In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.
Whenever I hear people in church talk about why other people left, mentally I always preface their comments with, “If I were to leave the church I’d leave because I…”
LookingHard wrote:Post this saying that you understand what this is saying and it applies to some, but for some this can come off as judging. President Utchdorf said that people not all that leave do so because they were offended.
http://www.ldsliving.com/President-Monson-Challenges-Latter-day-Saints-to-Stop-Judging-Start-Loving-One-Another/s/82947 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.ldsliving.com/President-Monson-Challenges-Latter-day-Saints-to-Stop-Judging-Start-Loving-One-Another/s/82947 (credit to mom3 for finding it)
I like Pres Monson’s remarks. I used this on my HT visits this month.
Always Thinking wrote:What could be some ways to bring up this type of thing in class if it ever comes up again?
AT, I’ve found that if I try to defend those hypothetical members who have left, it’s easy for people to double down and dig in, rather than submitting to see your point. However, if I talk about my own experiences, people become much less judgmental, at least externally. You don’t have to get into specifics. Just keep it general. I’ve mentioned in SS and EQ that I’m grateful that Elder Uchtdorf said that our testimonies don’t have to be this tall to enter, because I often feel like I have a lot of work to do. It can feel overwhelming to come to church and feel like you’re surrounded by spiritual giants when you hear them bearing their testimonies that they “know” this and the “know” that. My testimony is still at the stages where I can say I “believe” or I “hope.” It can be intimidating for me to walk into a building full of people who seem to be so much further along than I am, and who never have any doubts or questions. It sometimes feels like I should work through this journey on my own, until I can come back on more of an equal footing with the other people who are comfortable saying that they “know.”Now, keep in mind that when I say things like this, I don’t necessarily feel that way. I don’t think people who are being judgmental are actually spiritual giants. But, I put things in this kind of a box, because it kind of disarms the crowd. When you lay yourself out and make them feel like they have all the power, and that you’re intimidated by how great and wonderful they are, then they’re much more willing to drop their defenses and come down to your level. I think the best way to help other people feel welcome, is for all of us (TBM and unorthodox alike) to lay our burdens on the table and just be honest about who we are and admit that we are all works in progress.
People gonna people. I don’t mean that dismissively of the post. It’s frustrating. However, in the end, people are people who do and say people stuff – good and bad.
Just like us.
Quote:People gonna people.
I don’t mean that dismissively of the post. It’s frustrating. However, in the end, people are people who do and say people stuff – good and bad.
Just like us.
I agree with Ray.
When someone is less active or no longer a member, the message they send (intentionally or unintentionally) is that the Church and all its related values is simply unimportant or, even worse, worthless. When something is of great value to us, we strongly reject any suggestions that it might be anything less than what we think it is. Those whose faith have changed or altered in some way may forget (or perhaps never were) in a place were the gospel was EVERYTHING. It permeated EVERY aspect of life and belief. It was food to eat, water to drink, and air to breath. When you have that kind of belief and dedication to something, ANY attempt to denigrate it will be met with complete and utter denial or dismissal. And that goes for any system of belief (humanistic, scientific, religious). Change is hard.
Plus, for many members, the act of leaving something so wonderful to them is really and truly completely perplexing. They can’t imagine if someone truly understood the gospel, why they would ever leave it. So they cast out about for alternative explanations, some of which don’t feel comfortable to the faith-transitioned. Each person must do what they think is best but I probably wouldn’t waste too much time and energy trying to change someone’s perspective on this. However, if they come to you (or a group that you’re in) with SINCERE questions as to why this or that person has left, that may be the time to talk about it.
How to respond? If I am ever in a position to respond to negatories on less actives or exMormons, I would say something like: Quote:After you’ve spent some time talking to less active or ex-Mormons, you find it’s not as simple as the one liner to which we tend to reduce their reasons for leaving. As Elder Uchdorft said — “it’s not that simple”. And sometimes, it’s our own behavior that causes it
Or
Quote:It’s in times like these we have to resist the tendency to be judgmental. Jesus appears to have known that when there is a common set of values to which a community subscribes, there is an amplified tendency to judge people who do not appear to be towing the line….that’s why he said to be al light, not a judge. I know firsthand that many of these people leave the church due to the failings of the people who are still active. Perhaps we need to ask “Lord, is it I?”. And in judging them, do we make it even harder for them to come back?
or
Quote:Loyalty, along with Love are the most likely attributes that will get these people back. There have been situations where less active people have found out about things said about them in these meetings — and it only strengthens their aversion to church. It makes our love for them appear conditional, and their acceptance in our community dependent on external things rather than love for who they are. I suggest we talk about how we can make sure these people feel there is an open door and a warm fire for them should they decide to return, rather than speaking negatively about them
or
Quote:
It’s strange — the twists and turns life takes. Any one of us could be less active depending on what happens to us — would we want the Ward council speaking this way about us should we ever face our own Goliath that impacts our commitment to the gospel or church?I’m not afraid to show a bit of professional edge in these circumstances. And make people stop and think.
The judgmental one really hit home with one Mormon who was very judgmental toward others. He even brought it up at another time about his judgmentalism, wanting more information about whether he was judgmental or not. And I repeated what he had said in a previous meeting, indicating how it showed a very negative attitude toward the person he was talking about. That he might consider replacing those comments with love.
I have been on the receiving end of the judgmentalism. My home teacher told me that he defends me in meetings, and that he doesn’t like the things they say about me. Not a really politically smart thing to do — to tell me that — but he said it. It really alienated me for a bit. Do you want to go back to a community where they talk about you in groups, negatively, in the formal hierarchy?
So, these righteous, active Mormons have their own warts we need to love out of them when appropriate..
I heard about a technique called “deep canvassing” Quote:https://youarenotsosmart.com/2016/07/18/yanss-080-deep-canvassing/ It is where you can get someone to think about their position on an issue via a set of questions. I almost think this is what I learned of as the Socratic method of teaching.
As I have stated, I am fine with others having a strong belief in the church. I do have a desire to have them less disparaging of those that decide to leave. I have wondered if there are a set of questions that could be had with a member where the member could come away at least a bit less judgmental and dismissive of those that leave AND ACTUALLY FEEL GOOD ABOUT THAT CONCLUSION!
I would love to see a set of questions and see this modeled.
I just don’t think the average TBM type can comprehend that someone really believes the church is false. It has to be sin or laziness of some kind. It just does not enter their mind that the church is wrong it must be the individual.
If you have that viewpoint your brain has to develop reasons for people leaving.
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There is always this gem from Pres. Uchtdorf: Quote:This topic of judging others could actually be taught in a two-word sermon. When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges, or wanting to cause harm, please apply the following:
Stop it!
It’s that simple. We simply have to stop judging others and replace judgmental thoughts and feelings with a heart full of love for God and His children. God is our Father. We are His children. We are all brothers and sisters. I don’t know exactly how to articulate this point of not judging others with sufficient eloquence, passion, and persuasion to make it stick. I can quote scripture, I can try to expound doctrine, and I will even quote a bumper sticker I recently saw. It was attached to the back of a car whose driver appeared to be a little rough around the edges, but the words on the sticker taught an insightful lesson. It read, “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.”
We must recognize that we are all imperfect—that we are beggars before God. Haven’t we all, at one time or another, meekly approached the mercy seat and pleaded for grace? Haven’t we wished with all the energy of our souls for mercy—to be forgiven for the mistakes we have made and the sins we have committed?
Because we all depend on the mercy of God, how can we deny to others any measure of the grace we so desperately desire for ourselves? My beloved brothers and sisters, should we not forgive as we wish to be forgiven?
(GC April 2012, full talk here:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng&_r=1 ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng&_r=1 DarkJedi wrote:There is always this gem from Pres. Uchtdorf:
Quote:This topic of judging others could actually be taught in a two-word sermon. When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges, or wanting to cause harm, please apply the following:
Stop it!
It’s that simple. We simply have to stop judging others and replace judgmental thoughts and feelings with a heart full of love for God and His children. God is our Father. We are His children. We are all brothers and sisters. I don’t know exactly how to articulate this point of not judging others with sufficient eloquence, passion, and persuasion to make it stick. I can quote scripture, I can try to expound doctrine, and I will even quote a bumper sticker I recently saw. It was attached to the back of a car whose driver appeared to be a little rough around the edges, but the words on the sticker taught an insightful lesson. It read, “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.”
We must recognize that we are all imperfect—that we are beggars before God. Haven’t we all, at one time or another, meekly approached the mercy seat and pleaded for grace? Haven’t we wished with all the energy of our souls for mercy—to be forgiven for the mistakes we have made and the sins we have committed?
Because we all depend on the mercy of God, how can we deny to others any measure of the grace we so desperately desire for ourselves? My beloved brothers and sisters, should we not forgive as we wish to be forgiven?
(GC April 2012, full talk here:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng&_r=1 ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng&_r=1
I do like the quote from the talk and it applies in many situations. But I don’t like it in the sense of talking about ex-members as I think it almost leads a TBM to still equate leaving the church with sin. I would assume even if a TBM took the message to heart, they would say in their mind, “I need to not judge that ex-mo just because he sinned by leaving the church”.LookingHard wrote:DarkJedi wrote:There is always this gem from Pres. Uchtdorf:
Quote:This topic of judging others could actually be taught in a two-word sermon. When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges, or wanting to cause harm, please apply the following:
Stop it!
It’s that simple. We simply have to stop judging others and replace judgmental thoughts and feelings with a heart full of love for God and His children. God is our Father. We are His children. We are all brothers and sisters. I don’t know exactly how to articulate this point of not judging others with sufficient eloquence, passion, and persuasion to make it stick. I can quote scripture, I can try to expound doctrine, and I will even quote a bumper sticker I recently saw. It was attached to the back of a car whose driver appeared to be a little rough around the edges, but the words on the sticker taught an insightful lesson. It read, “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.”
We must recognize that we are all imperfect—that we are beggars before God. Haven’t we all, at one time or another, meekly approached the mercy seat and pleaded for grace? Haven’t we wished with all the energy of our souls for mercy—to be forgiven for the mistakes we have made and the sins we have committed?
Because we all depend on the mercy of God, how can we deny to others any measure of the grace we so desperately desire for ourselves? My beloved brothers and sisters, should we not forgive as we wish to be forgiven?
(GC April 2012, full talk here:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng&_r=1 ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng&_r=1
I do like the quote from the talk and it applies in many situations. But I don’t like it in the sense of talking about ex-members as I think it almost leads a TBM to still equate leaving the church with sin. I would assume even if a TBM took the message to heart, they would say in their mind, “I need to not judge that ex-mo just because he sinned by leaving the church”.Would it have been different if I only included (or DFU only said) this:
Quote:This topic of judging others could actually be taught in a two-word sermon. When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges, or wanting to cause harm, please apply the following:
Stop it!
There’s nothing about sin in there. That message is very direct. Stop it.
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