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I lost my literal belief in the church and God about 2 years ago. I’m married to a TBM wife and have 5 kids. I know the Church means so much to her so I want to make things work and remain active. I’m currently serving as Elders Quorum President and obviously attending each week. I told her when I first came out to her about 1 1/2 years ago that I listened to many of the Mormonstories interviews. She pretty much feels John Dehlin is evil. So I then started listening to Bill Reel’s podcast. Even though Bill is more of a believer than me I really enjoy his podcast and appreciate his perspective. Although I don’t post often, I also come on this site a lot and am thankful for the content here. My wife has even browsed on here and listened to a few of Bill’s podcast. It seems like we try to avoid the issue but about once a month my wife will want to talk about it. Last night it got brought up. She is really upset and feels I am obsessed with the negative views of the Church that get discussed on these sites. I consider these places a lifeline and feel my involvement with them helps me stay supportive of her and active. She basically wants me to give them up and only listen to things about the Church that come from the Church. I reluctantly told her I would consider it but inwardly was getting so frustrated and angry. I woke up this morning still angry about it. I don’t think I can stay sane and not interact with a community that understands me.
What can I tell her or share with her that will help her understand where I am coming from? I recently picked up the book “Planted” and when I finish it she said she would read it. Of course Patrick Mason isn’t a general authority so I don’t know how much validity she will give it. We also have done 3 visits with a marriage counselor that is a TBM. I don’t feel much progress was made there.
Ouch – for both of you. I really do hurt for both sides on this. I was your wife. My husband experienced the crisis first. At that time (nearly a decade ago) there was no “Planted”. No Essays. Nothing like there is today. We didn’t even have the Givens’ then. Our only saving grace was an incident with church history and the church history department that we had experienced a year or two before. It’s way too long for this post. Needless to say because of it we both realized we didn’t know everything. Problem was he had hit his limit. He tried to remain a part of it for a 5 or 6 years, but eventually it wore thin. Now he is anti-religious (all the way around, and we did try those, too). The most important thing I have learned through this decade of enlightenment is
No one can change another person. Ever.We all change when we want to. And some things about us will never change. Because of that you can not “teach her” how to believe or see things like you. No amount of podcasts, articles, etc. will do it. Especially in the short term. Over time though, who knows. For me I could instantly see (and still do) strawman arguments from John Dehlin’s podcasts. I could spot inconsistencies in the leaders of the disaffected groups just as easily as I could spot the GA inconsistencies. That brought out a whole other set of disagreements. And it wasn’t pretty.
Without spending endless pages of personal history – here are some suggestions.
#1 – Is this marriage important to you?
#2 – Is religion more important to you than this marriage?
#3 – What style of love would you like to receive in life?
#4 – Can you care for her beyond her religion?
#5 – Where do you personally stand with the LDS religion? Do you despise it? Does it make you ill? Is it tolerable?
If she want’s faithful information, where (for her) does that come from? Is it LDS.org only? Is it books sold at Deseret Book? Do articles from FAIR count? How about the Essays can you begin there? In fairness take a break from the podcasts. Invite her to check out
http://faceseast.org/http://faceseast.org/” class=”bbcode_url”> Last of all PM me if you want. Others on here have personal stories also. Hopefully they will share. Take your time. Exercise a lot. It helps your emotions. And keeps you calm. Read old threads here. I bet there isn’t a question we haven’t covered.
I agree fully with what Mom said. My first thought as I was reading through your post was “Sounds like they need marriage counseling.” Then I got to the part where you said you had done some counseling. Sometimes counselors don’t click and not all counselors are created equal. It can take some trial and error to find one that works for you, perhaps you need to try a different one (perhaps one who isn’t quite so orthodox or who isn’t LDS at all, and their are counselors who specialize in this area). Otherwise the only thing I can add to Mom’s great advice is that when speaking to your spouse about religion or the church focus on what you do believe.In the beginning of my faith crisis and when I was angry I horribly botched the approach with my believing wife by constantly talking about what I didn’t believe or what I thought was wrong with the church. Things only got better after I was able to talk about what I do believe and like about the church.
That’s a tough situation. Correct me if I’m wrong but from what was shared it sounds like sdj’s DW is the one that is pushing for the other to change. sdj wrote:What can I tell her or share with her that will help her understand where I am coming from?
I don’t know. I do like mom3’s suggestion of
http://faceseast.org/http://faceseast.org/” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.facebook.com/BelievingMormonsWithDoubtingSpousesPublic ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.facebook.com/BelievingMormonsWithDoubtingSpousesPublic I think one worry that a believing spouse may have is that their SO will jump off the deep end, like a certain lifestyle or morals will be completely abandoned along with beliefs. It feeds into a commonly held belief (or fear) that people stop believing or leave the church because they want to sin. I do think it’s important to reassure people with words but actions speak louder. I mean, you’re the EQP, even orthodox members hate that job.
:thumbup: I wouldn’t rub the “being EQP” thing in her face but I would try to reassure her about what I guessed were her fears.I am in a similar position. My wife is largely TBM and gets upset when I speak honestly, and therefore, negatively about the church, in addition to the positives. I would recommend the following: a) Set a boundary around your attitudes and belief as it relates to your wife. Make it a kind of mission not to hurt her faith, or her commitment. Just to nurture it and help her be the TBM that she is.
b) This will mean stopping discussion about the bloggernacle, about the church, about your negatives about it. Even if she asked you about. Learn to give neutral answers or positives. I don’t share any of the negatories with my wife. We talk about the church experience, people we’ve met, the blunders leaders make (few these days, with competent people in place) and the overall experience. But I have learned to steer clear of contrarion ideas or harsh criticism.
c) Keep posting here. But don’t let her see the effects of it. Also, if you can make the postings at times she will not see them, just keep it kind of vague and obscure about your bloggernacle involvement. Do it at the library, at the local restaurant, etcetera, or on your phone when you are away from the house. I have at times even criticized the online posting experience (not StayLDS, which I really like).
d) Consider reading “When Mormons Doubt” off Amazon. The author is a returned missionary who lost his faith. But he has found a way to stay LDS by focusing on goodness and beauty and truth which you both believe in, n the church. There is a lot of it. Goodness — self explanatory, beauty (spiritual experiences) and truth — however you perceive it. These things can be areas of focus. I really liked this book — the author suggests you engage in discussion where you listen to your wife’s perspectives. Ask her questions about it when it comes up. Ask her to share. Make sure she feels heard and understood. Then, decide how much to share, and I recommend very little. Make these bloggernacle sites your lifeline and place to share your true feelings…
e) Set some boundaries with the church, but make them reasonable….things that won’t upset your wife.
f) Invest in the relationship in other ways. I suggest you read marriagebuilders.com and learn about the top emotional needs your wife has. Work harder at meeting those emotional needs. This, she may consider to be compensation for your lack of churchywurchiness. In the movie — the meaning of life with Will Smith — Wills hows up at an important job interview covered in paint flecks and paint-covered clothing after spending a night in jail. The interviewers said “if you were my boss, and saw I’d hired you with a shirt like that on, what would you think?”. Will Smith replied “He must’ve had a REALLY NICE pair of pants!.
So, if you can’t fully meet her church-needs, compensate with really meeting her other needs. Whatever they are — there is an emotional needs questionnaire at
http://www.marriagebuilders.com both of you can do to learn about your emotional needs. By meeting the most important ones (say, the top 3) you can make it harder for your wife to want to leave you or feel the same level of dissatisfaction over your church orientation. She may think of how unhappy she is in the church, but then realize how great a provider, talker, affectionistic person you are — things that are important to her and that she doesn’t want to see leave her life.Lastly, use a phrase a woman married to a non-mem told me years ago. My wife threatened to leave me due to my lack of churchiness. This woman said “I think love should transcend the church, even if a person is active”….engage your wife in thinking about love, and how it should be transcendent, even above church agreement….
My thoughts…having walked the road. I have to keep investing in my relationship…it is not easy, but so far, these principles have helped me.
Oh — and by the way, consider thinking about how might like to serve in the church without fully believing, or believing at all. There are many ways to do that….sounds like a discussion thread in itself
I also liked what mom3 had to say, sharing from her experience. Good stuff. nibbler wrote:I think one worry that a believing spouse may have is that their SO will jump off the deep end, like a certain lifestyle or morals will be completely abandoned along with beliefs. It feeds into a commonly held belief (or fear) that people stop believing or leave the church because they want to sin. I do think it’s important to reassure people with words but actions speak louder.
I also think this is important.
If you can…try to separate out church experiences from life stuff and marriage stuff.
I believe it is becoming more and more common for people to be able to express a change in faith views nowadays. I believe bishops and leaders hear it more than they used to. While the first traditional go to is “they are lost and want to sin”…I think more and more people see there are real issues with the correlated church materials.
But the problems with church history or any of the issues John Dehlin brought up in podcasts are not new, they have always been there, and they are not definitive one way or the other. MEaning….they don’t mean if you think those doubts and thoughts that you are evil. For example, Richard Bushman or Patrick Mason or Old Timer have variations of those thoughts but process it differently and faithfully.
So…none of the podcasts are the issue. None of the topics in the essays are the issue.
All those things present a situation and a choice. You can choose to stay in the church and keep working with a different faith, or you can leave the church and find other sources of meaning in life.
I guess what I am saying is that you and your wife have to work through it your way with your choices. Being understood by the other person takes time and patience, and sometimes never comes. Can there be enough acceptance and love in the relationship to survive even with differences? Even with differing faiths? Can you understand your wife as much as you want her to understand you?
My advice, I guess…is that it would serve you well to do many things to show you want goodness and love and good things in your life. An agnostic can still go home teaching because it is service to other people. Callings in church and participation can all be done with a bigger picture in mind than just church truth claims. Or…you can not go to church anymore and have a marriage that works that way. Those are all options when love and a marriage is more important than church doctrine or programs.
I would try to balance your studies so you listen to General Conference talks as much as you listen to podcasts. Read Alma 30 and do some experiments with your faith…share with your wife how you are trying to honestly follow what the scriptures tell us to do. Read the scriptures as much as you read authors like Patrick Mason. Stay humble in earnestly trying to learn from the best books in life on how to be more loving, have more integrity, have more kindness and unselfishness, more service. EQP could be a very good way to reach out to others who may also be struggling and find ways to connect and listen and support and lift, even if there are 100 different ways to view the church.
You may have unique views and talents in your EQ calling that others cannot do as well as you, and others may respond to you. Keep the door open that you could be totally wrong about your views and the church is all true. But…until you see it that way, it is only a hope…not knowledge…and you are honest about that…and it is ok, as long as you’re trying.
Stay balanced, go slow, try different things, and respect your wife’s testimony that you are willing to do anything for her and show you are a good person the way you are. The bishop will know you are not the only one to have these doubts…he may have ultra orthodox views or he may not…that is the roulette game with leaders…but I don’t think any bishop hasn’t heard this situation. It is too common these days.
My sister is married to a muslim. He supports her mormonism, she supports his islam religion and heritage. Differences can work. The hard part is navigating the choices when it is changing. But it can work out.
Keep us posted on how you do, or ask questions about what makes sense to you and what is difficult for you to do without feeling honest about yourself. The discussion helps all of us and other readers.
sdj, I hope you and she both can move along together. My husband’s fear in the beginning was palpable. I could tell he didn’t know what to expect. I didn’t want to wear garments all the time anymore; I won’t be in a conversation that papers over polygamy without saying something; I have more interest in and respect for other explanations of the world around me. Was I going to take a step back from him and our marriage, too? I read whatever I want. But I try to show in words and actions that I’m happy, so reading in and of itself isn’t a threat. Maybe skim “Planted” ASAP and get it to her? Good luck.
My favorite guide these last several years is the first quote below.
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You sound so much like me! A lot of good advice has already been given. I don’t know what I could add other than to focus on the positive – what you do believe, even if it is secular in nature and has nothing to do with the Church or God. Don’t try to explain what you don’t believe or why. This won’t help unless your wife is ready to hear it. Use StayLDS or other sources with people who do understand to vent. I know your wife doesn’t want you to participate here, but it sounds like you need the support from others who understand what you are going through.
I’d also shop around for a good counselor that can understand both of you if the one you are with isn’t helping. The right counselor can make a world of difference!
How are you handling being EQP? That seems like it would be tough too!
Reading Planted might really help your wife. My wife and I read the first chapter and the part about Hans Mattson losing his testimony and no longer being active really scared her, I think. She didn’t want to read any more after that. A gentler approach to Planted might be to have her listen to Patrick Mason’s recent FAIR Conference address. I can’t find the video link right now, but I know it is online somewhere. Here is the link to the transcript:
Patrick Mason also did some great podcast interviews recently. You may have already listened to these. Here are some more links:
http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/06/premium-patrick-mason-planted/ http://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/patrick-mason-planted-belief-and-belonging-in-an-age-of-doubt/ http://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/patrick-mason-planted-tackling-the-hard-questions/ Good luck to you! I’m struggling in a very similar situation. Things have been a little better lately, since I’ve tried extra hard to be the best husband and father I can be in spite of my disbelief, and I just don’t talk about my disbelief with her any more.
Good advice FS. I had another thought after reading your post…sometimes it almost feels good if they read something that scares them. I have wondered if that is because it is something that we felt ourselves and having them feel it means there is a shared fear.
But…I don’t think that is necessary to understand or respect or love each other. It is probably more loving to try to help them avoid the fears we faced. Finding sources that can help them see the topics are real (polygamy or whatever), so there is common agreement the issue exists, but offering a way to see those things and still believe in the church would help them and their testimony.
I dunno. Just a thought that came to me. Focus on love and bonding, not fears and shared scary emotions.
The mature approach is to try to focus on the fact that there is nothing proven one way or another. You can’t prove the church is true or false. It is a spiritual experience. Seek to embrace paradox and find ways to allow that to grow within relationships. It is true and false at the same time. God looks on our hearts at who we are becoming, not in our wallets to see if the bar code on the temple recommends confirms we are good. How we handle the different faith views within relationships is what is most important.
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