I have a question.

MM,

I completely agree. This kind of justification that anything goes, as long as God commanded it, can be a pretty slippery slope. That’s the mentality you see with people like Warren Jeffs, justifying his behavior, or Marshall Applewhite from the Heaven’s Gate cult. I think both of these guys would argue that God commanded them to do the things they were doing. I don’t buy it. The church teaches that we are responsible for our actions, and that we have been given free agency. If we do something wrong, we can’t simply claim, “the devil made me do it.” So, why can prophets say, “God made me do it?”

I prefer to lean on the bible’s advice that, “by their fruits you shall know them.” Like you said, we have a responsibility to figure out for ourselves what we believe is from God, and what is a prophet’s personal opinion or advice.

As I thought about it, JS had to be formidable presence to the believers within the Church.

I picture him as a “rock star” within the community he lived in.

Who would follow a short, overweight, bald man with the same revelations? (No offense intended.)

Another thought, if the Church wants us to find out for ourselves if specific revelations are true or not,

why should they (the general membership) be critical if we didn’t receive an answer at the same moment in time?

This goes for anything:

– Moving to Nauvoo.

– Blacks & the PH.

– Same sex marriage.

– etc.

Claiming God asked you to kill your son then saying an angel intervened, beheading a drunken scoundrel then stealing from him and kidnapping his servant, marrying women who were already legally married to other men, marrying young teen girls, … Just to name a few .. of these faith promoting stories or criminal acts? The God I feel close to and drawn to my entire life isn’t the type to condone any of those things. Am I naive or are those dudes crazy?

I actually really like the story of Nephi killing Laban, because it teaches very clearly that life is complex, it isn’t black and white. I suspect that we don’t fully understand the importance of the brass plates to Nephi and his family, but we can understand that Nephi was up against a wall. Two things that were both absolutely uncompromisable for him were on the block, and one of them had to give. Would it have been right for you to kill Laban? Would it have been right for me to kill Laban? The answer is clearly no. But then, we aren’t Nephi. We aren’t in his shoes. And we really can’t judge him.

Who are we to judge people who feel like God is directing them away from the church? Or gays who often must choose between suicide and what they’ve been taught is the only path to the Celestial Kingdom? Or the investigator who desires with all their heart to get a confirmation that the church is true, only to get the answer no? Yes, we’ve gotten different answers from God than they did, but we really can’t judge other people’s decisions; we are not the eternal Judge. I suspect that more often than not, when me make judgements about other people’s decisions, we are judging incorrectly.

However, there is a judgement that we can and need to make. And that is, “What am I going to do and who am I going to listen to?” We work out our own salvation before God with fear and trembling. It doesn’t mean that people who come to a different answer than us are wrong; it means that we are different.

Yes, personal revelation trumps scripture. If it never did, then it would be meaningless. We’d all just follow the prophet, who can never go wrong. But a cursory glance at history shows that that clearly isn’t the case. And yes, this is dangerous. It means that we need to be very careful to not be led astray, whether by other people or our own thoughts. The Lord has provided numerous signposts of various importance. In no particular order, we have the advice of parents, of church leaders, the written scriptures, our own righteous desires, the two great commandments, etc. They are all very useful, but they don’t always agree with each other. It is our job to resolve the conflicts.

And whichever choice we make, there will always be many people out there who are certain that we’re abandoning God.

I recently realized that Rough Stone Rolling is an apologetic work. Bushman is just much more tactful than FAIR.

In the very broad sense of an apologist being a defender of the faith, yes. Bushman states he is a believer. There’s nothing wrong with that, and I think that’s what makes RSR special – despite being a believer he is not afraid to be honest and share facts.

I’m probably alone in this but I thought Bushman was very selective about where he applied details.

As to the OP.

I suppose anything can be justified. How we justify our actions speaks more to the type of god that we hope exists than the type of god that actually exists.

I recently realized that Rough Stone Rolling is an apologetic work. Bushman is just much more tactful than FAIR.

In the very broad sense of an apologist being a defender of the faith, yes. Bushman states he is a believer. There’s nothing wrong with that, and I think that’s what makes RSR special – despite being a believer he is not afraid to be honest and share facts.

If he is an apologist, he does seem to be more of “here are the facts” and even saying things like on page 75 about the M. priesthood restoration

the late appearance of these accounts raises the possibility of later fabrication

He does not state that is his view, but more than most any other “apologist” he is tipping his hat that those that reach this conclusion have some basis or at least taking the opposite view isn’t the most solid ground from a historical perspective.

That plus Bushman’s comment a few months ago about how the predominant narrative is not true and he can’t be characterized as being just the same as many more typical apologists that fight for every inch of ground. But I will give you that in the end he says he is a believer. Does that make him a nuanced apologist? :problem: