- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I was going to be bringing this up on this forum and as for some comments and wisdom, but Always thinking’s thread on “Coming clean”
So I want to (somewhat) come clean with my bishop, but some have warned me about doing so. So convince me what I have below is a wrong action for me to take if you hold that position.
First let me again thank the participants on this forum. You have all kept me from losing my mind and/or my temper. I really appreciate the variety, from full blown atheist and several other various levels of belief. But more than that I appreciate the acceptance shown and wisdom shared. You guys are great.
Just a quick background in case someone new is reading this. Those that know me a bit can skip this.
Quote:For even more background see
My StoryI started reconstructing my beliefs after even considering myself an atheist for a while. I now feel like I am more of an agnostic, but willing to allow myself to have faith in God and follow Jesus’ basic teachings. Generally I am calm now. But before I got to where I am I spent about 2 years wrestling with making sure I had studied things out and asked God what he wanted me to do. I can’t say I have any great strong direction, but I feel that God loves me and he wants me to love others.
So fast forward to about a month ago and I am still in a significant ward leadership position, but my wife thinks my faith crisis is behind me since during my 2 years of reading all the books I can buy on a wide range of authors. I was generally very orthoprax (did all outward signs – my callings, meetings, etc. even though I didn’t believe). I confide in my wife that I can no longer say I am a believer. I try to soften it as much as I can, but still it was a huge shock for her. I told her I don’t want to de-convert her, but I would like the same respect from her on my beliefs. I assured her I am not going to start drinking, fooling around, or wanting a divorce. She does not seem to want to talk about it much, but she does seem to have accepted it. I know I am going to have to push a bit for her to talk about it more, but it is going better than I thought it would. Much better than some that I have heard about.
So my main question is how to come out to others, and specifically to my bishop.I hear quite a bit where people (not just on this site) say to “keep your cards close to your chest” and don’t tell your bishop much – the very minimum. I can understand there are some circumstances were someone is pressed into playing the LDS role and they HAVE to “StayLDS” or the repercussions are just too significant (i.e. a Professor at BYU, working at a company that has staunch LDS management that won’t employ someone that leaves the church). But I can’t say I get why to keep it so tight lipped. Let me be clear, I am NOT going to tell anyone “the church isn’t true and you just need to do your homework.” As I have repeatedly said on this site, I don’t want to be an angry ex-mo. No way – no how – not even close. Maybe the warning is not to go bring the CES letter to your bishop or have a motive to try and start your bishop’s faith crisis. That is not what I am planning on doing.
I would like to go talk to my bishop and be frank. Here is what I generally want to tell him.
Quote:Bishop, you are a great person. I look up to you and consider you a friend. I feel I have to be honest with you and tell you that can no longer consider myself a believer of the LDS truth claims. I can tell that it really works for you and brings you closer to God, but it doesn’t for me. The puzzle pieces just don’t fit together at all anymore. I see way to many things that feel to me like they show that God isn’t leading this church. I want to support anybody that wants to stay a member of the church. I can see a lot of good that the church does for many people. But I just can’t say I feel God is here and I don’t feel closer to God when I attend church. In fact it is often the opposite. Sunday is the most stressful day of the week to me. I do not want to be a problem that you have to deal with and I will not be going around trying to lead people away. To that point it has been more than 2 years since I stopped believing and I have spent that time really trying to get my testimony back, but the more I tried, the more I came to the conclusion and feeling in my heart that I can’t say I feel the church is what it claims to be. So I have not caused any commotions in the last 2 years. You are welcome to go and ask if others in my classes if I have been doing so. Quite often one of your counselors has been attending when I give lessons. I don’t plan on changing in this regard.
I do need to be released and will give you a few weeks to get a replacement, but I do ask that you start working on it.
I will still be attending sacrament meeting and some other meetings. I certainly would love to continue being invited to be involved with service projects. I do still consider myself a Christian and want to follow Christ’s Gospel. I just feel that so much extra stuff has been added on to the central message of Christ in the church that I don’t feel close to God when I attend.
I do want to make a few things clear. I am not leaving because I sinned. I feel I could clearly answer all of the recommend questions except for sustaining the leaders and a belief in the restoration. I think you know I am not lazy. In fact I am seriously considering taking a leadership role in Habitat for Humanity. I am not leaving because I was offended. This ward is great. It is with some sadness that I realize some will treat me quite differently once they hear where I am at. Please don’t make me a project as that will not turn my beliefs around and probably will irritate me. Please do ask the ward not to treat my family with pity and certainly don’t shun them. I also will let you know it has nothing to do with your actions or inactions. I respect you and your wife very much. You both have hearts of gold. I would still like to associate with this ward and I hope to do it in a way that people feel comfortable and that I am not a threat.
I will do my best to give respect and support for members of the church. All I ask in return is the same respect for me and the path I feel God is pointing me to.
I recently was in the temple when one of my kids were sealed in the temple. In there I was thinking, “this is the last time I will be in here and I will miss any of my other children that are sealed.” I was OK with that. So I am not trying to “get by and keep my recommend.” I accept that I will probably never have a recommend again. I assume he might ask for my recommend.I have heard some say that what you say now can limit what you can do in the future as bishops and stake presidents will remember for years. I don’t see that I am doing anything that can’t be undone. And by “undone” I realize undoing this will be several months of meeting and discussing with the bishop / SP. I don’t see “coming back” as something I am likely to do, but I don’t feel I am shutting the door on the church.
One option that people have suggested a few times to me is to just “fade away.” I just can’t see that happening in my situation. I am sure I will being lovingly questioned by my bishop. I don’t think he will stop until he gets some explanation that makes sense – which will probably be close to what I stated above. He is a friend and we have worked close together for more than a decade in various callings and I was even his home teacher for a few years (near 100% I might add – with some damn good lessons geared towards his kids
In the week or so of thinking about this, I realized there is a part of me that wants to let people know I don’t believe and I don’t just want to fade away with nobody knowing why I faded. I am not talking about going down with guns blazing and looking for the spotlight. But to be able to be honest and tell someone, “I support you staying a member, but I can’t say I believe it anymore” and not really going deeper. To be honest I want to make space for others that are in turmoil or those that are all but out, but are hard pressed to even talk about it with anybody. I have done that “keep it to yourself” for a few years and then at least found this site. It was very bad for my mental heath.
I listened to the latest Mormon Stories and a couple in Alaska just got excommunicated for 2 facebook posts saying they don’t believe. They mentioned that since they did a Mormon Stories interview they were flooded with people saying they are having the same questions/concerns. One of the heartbreaking ones they mentioned was both a father and a son they both knew and worked with. Both of these two contacted them independently and both said that they were struggling, but couldn’t talk to anybody in their ward OR THEIR FAMILY. That is just wrong wrong wrong. If I can help nudge these discussions or help someone, I am fine taking a bit of shaming from my ward, stake, and family. I have no illusions of grandeur. I have been warned by some wise people on this forum that once you say you don’t believe, you generally are ignored. If that happens I will go work to find others to connect with.
So convince me I shouldn’t go into by bishop and say what I listed above, or other comments / wisdom you might have. Thanks for reading my novel.
Hmmm. I am not going to try to persuade you otherwise. It looks like a reasonable approach given that you want to be released and you have previously been in the bishopric and have a good relationship with your bishop. My only thought you didn’t specifically address is clarifying that you are speaking for yourself and not your wife. Do you want them to go through your wife to you in future (that could happen)? If not (I would say not – that’s irritating), then clarify that. Talk about the relationships continuing on as is, that you are fine with contact, but (as you said) not being a project. I’d also say not treating your wife with pity or making her feel like you are a project. The fact this keeps coming to your mind tells me it is something you want to do…you have gone slow and considered it all. I say…do it. I think it could be a weight off your shoulders. I like how you explained it had been years for you and you are not angry or offended.
I think it sounds great.
Follow your heart. Keep us posted on how it is received and how you journey forward.
I won’t try to convince you either way, but since I just this minute finished listening to the Maloufs’ interview…. Any guesses as to how confiding all this to the bishop would change things for your wife?
I would probably keep the first paragraph shorter, no statements that could be taken as negative – like not feeling God at church – and just leave it at more along the lines of, “I’m no longer a believer in specific LDS claims.” Maybe he’ll ask for more, and then you can decide what and how to say it. I like the idea of ending with what you do believe and how you’d like to serve in the future. It’s nice that he knows you’re good for it.
I didn’t listen to the first part of the Maloufs’ interview and don’t know really know the lead-up, but I just knew they didn’t resemble me in some important ways. Their whole family is on the same page and happily striking out on their own away from the church. They and their kids are relatively young. I did like the end of the second interview when he wonders why we are so fearful or hesitant to talk openly with each other about belief and non-belief. I think we miss so much. And some of us are literally ships passing in the night like that father and son! I’ve been thinking lately about some things I would like to say about the Book of Mormon, but can’t.
It sounds to me like connecting with another real life human being is important right now. Especially if you think he would respect your wishes for how the info. is handled, I would not be too afraid to do it.
I’ll bite. Beware I am in a mood tonight. Your desire to help others be able to come clean is wonderful. Yes it is a nasty trade off for the present. But it’s been my experience that even if the Bishop is calm about it, and if your wife doesn’t end up getting any second wave damage from it, you lose the space you are hoping for. We aren’t mature enough to do that in a bold way yet. If an Uchtdorf talk can’t loosen the space, it’s unlikely you or I could either. Especially in an outside position.
Is there a way to help and remain? Can you begin discussions with others using books like Planted, or the LDS essays? Just ideas.
I definitely would nix the “not feeling God thing”. That has challenges all over it.
Now if you need to go for personal peace of heart or mind then this approach might work. But I would encourage tons of happy, public love and support for your families connection. Even if you walk, it’s not over. They still attend. They still have dreams that will hurt. The church will still be apart of your life through them. Your road of adjustment still lies before you.
Either way, we will be here. We want the best/happiest for you. Let us know how it goes.
LookingHard wrote:I hear quite a bit where people (not just on this site) say to “keep your cards close to your chest” and don’t tell your bishop much – the very minimum. I can understand there are some circumstances were someone is pressed into playing the LDS role and they HAVE to “StayLDS” or the repercussions are just too significant (i.e. a Professor at BYU, working at a company that has staunch LDS management that won’t employ someone that leaves the church). But I can’t say I get why to keep it so tight lipped.
I think you already touched on what I was going to say. Our thoughts can linger in the minds of others well after we’ve moved on to other things. I don’t see the advice to “keep your cards close to your chest” as advice to keep secrets from people, I see it as advice to give a transitional period some much needed space to breathe. It sounds like you’ve done that.
LookingHard wrote:So convince me I shouldn’t go into by bishop and say what I listed above…
No.
Okay, now for the longer version. Nope.
Serious this time… it sounds like you’ve put a lot of thought into this. I see noble intentions in your desire to talk openly about this to people. To me it sounds as though you’ve discovered your path. Why would I talk you out of that?
Faith (or belief) transitions aren’t easy. In the context of the LDS church people can feel as though their salvation depends on whether they are tethered to the church. It can be a painful process, not only for the person experiencing the transition but for the friends and family members of the person experiencing the transition. You “coming out of the closet” does more than allow you to discuss things openly with people. Your DW likely needs support as well and if you keep your transition a secret it may place your DW in a position where she feels as though she must keep it a secret as well and place her in a position where she feels as though she can’t talk to people to get the help she needs. Having it out there in the open may be a positive thing for her as well. Either way, I’d talk to DW about it.
LookingHard wrote:I have done that “keep it to yourself” for a few years and then at least found this site. It was very bad for my mental heath.
You planted the seed, you nourished it, you dunged about, it didn’t grow. No time lost though, it was an experiment that taught you something.
Do things that resonate.
After re-reading my post this AM it does read like a challenge – “convince me I am wrong!” I am not sure it was clear I was coming from a frame of mind, “I don’t quite understand why some people are advocating against saying almost anything.” I fear I am missing something that others have learned. I do see some situations where sharing how you feel isn’t wise. Those situations are partially what this entire web site is about. Hawkgrrrl – I have listened to a lot of podcasts (mormontransitions being a good one) that talk about fallout from mixed-faith marriages. I already thought my post was long enough so I didn’t go into how I am fine with them contacting me or my wife, but don’t exclude me. I am going to give praise when they appropriately contact me and try to make it clear I am not going to bite their head off or tell them they are a cult. I am going to ask for a specific home teacher that my wife likes and I get along with well.
Heber – yes. I think that subconscously I feel I am still living a double life. I feel stressed going to PEC and having it all be about “just get them back to church and everything will be fine” and not trying to help with deeper issues people are having. My ward is actually good with service for those that really need it and are doing a great job with a widow that has some significant needs. But it just frustrating feeling like I am going along with all of that “just get them inside the chapel” when I feel frustrated there.
Ann – I think my wife isn’t too upset and at the moment I feel she is kind of thinking, “why is he not talking to the bishop?” I will tell her what I am planning to tell the bishop and ask her for her opinion.
mom – OK. You are making me think. As I said, I was already writing the longest post I think I ever have. I didn’t go into alternatives such as bringing up Planted (I suspect my bishop may have already read it). But that is an alternative. I could go to my bishop, ask for a release and say I am all confused and ask him to read. It just seems like that may give the bishop a bit more time to process it, but I do think in a few months and maybe a few discussions with him it will come out where I am at. And we are then going to dive into several topics where he will be trying to convince me the apologist answer works and I fear he might push a button that can get me to react. And part of my purpose in nipping it in the bud is so that I don’t have to go into spilling more of my guts – back to “share as little as possible”. But you have me thinking.
Nibbler – thanks for your comments.
Thank all of you for your comments and any more that come in. I am going to go back in my cave and think about it before doing anything. oh – and run it by my wife also for her opinion.
Do you have the option to just stop going for a while? Tell the bishop you’re on sabbatical? Maybe you ask your wife which is a better approach to her? I don’t say that because the letter is written any particular way, just simply options. To reduce stress, to find more peace, reduce the meetings and do things that make you happy…regardless of what the bishop knows about your belief.
I’m not saying one way is the right way or better…just wondered if you have considered that option?
Heber13 wrote:Do you have the option to just stop going for a while? Tell the bishop you’re on sabbatical? Maybe you ask your wife which is a better approach to her?
Technically yes. But I did already promise my wife I would be going to SM with her as that would be hard for her with me never being there. And I would still need to ask for a release – which I suspect will trigger a “so any reason why you want a release / how is it going?” And not so much of a grilling as half a friend asking how it is going and half of the bishop asking if there is anything we need to talk about. And I don’t want to make excuses.LookingHard wrote:So I want to (somewhat) come clean with my bishop, but some have warned me about doing so. So convince me what I have below is a wrong action for me to take if you hold that position.
It seems like Church members that have lost faith in the Church quite often want TBMs to understand and respect their changed beliefs but unfortunately many TBMs are simply not going to understand or react very well to this news. That’s why I would much rather simply tell the bishop that I don’t want to pay tithing or do any callings without getting into the reasons why anymore than I have to because I think many TBMs feel far less threatened by less-committed members than by members openly admitting they don’t believe in the Church.
I think that’s why we hear the explanation that inactive members were supposedly just lazy, wanted to sin, etc. so much because it is a comforting way for TBMs to try to tell themselves that they are still on solid ground, making the right choice, etc. instead of facing the possibility that maybe the Church isn’t such a sure thing. If you want to give loss of belief as a reason why you want to be released from your calling I would still make it as short as possible because I think many TBMs don’t really want to hear why some of us don’t believe anymore. Maybe I would say something like, “I want to be released from my calling because I don’t believe in some of the Church’s teachings and it makes me uncomfortable to be asked to teach/support things I don’t believe in” in that case.
LookingHard: Your intentions are excellent. It is easy to envision your bishop listening to you and saying all the right things. There are many videos that show him how to do that. Expect to be released as you are requesting. Bishops know how to call people and how to release them. “Becoming a project” had little to do with a bishop. That had more to do with an individual ward mission leader or a auxiliary president. As an adult, you might make project status for a week if your name comes up in ward council. Then the ward wagon train moves on. Don’t expect lots of drama. Drama happens if you decide to come back — not when you leave.
Do expect a few ward members to ask you very pointed questions and then visibly flinch when you give a gentle but nuanced answer. Do expect people to start acting as if you have moved.
Culturally, it is acceptable to be inactive. It is not acceptable to question doctrine or history. Members learn how to share the gospel and how to handle being attacked. Too often, those are the only two scripts they know. They don’t know how to discuss the history or doctrine of the church with someone who is taking a step away from full belief. Too many have been taught that anyone who questions is an apostate. They end up using their script for “How do I defend the church when I am attacked for my beliefs?” The script tells them, “Bear your testimony as no one can argue with that.” Too many people do not know what to say or do after that. They can share their testimony and use it as a mic drop. Only, it isn’t a mic drop.
I wish the church would teach a script for how to have a real conversation about religion — including history, doctrine, and personal beliefs outside the mainstream church dogma. I think you would LOVE to have that with your bishop.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:I think that’s why we hear the explanation that inactive members were supposedly just lazy, wanted to sin, etc. so much because it is a comforting way for TBMs to try to tell themselves that they are still on solid ground
I completely agree, DA…I think you are spot on with that observation.
I get the feeling that is also part of the reason why LH wants to write the letter too…it would be nice to avoid the assumptions because of no other explanation.
That is what makes it a journey through all of this. There are many factors at play…complex and unique to LH and those in his ward and their family situation and reputation and connections, and the personalities of the local leaders which is a crap shoot (as in dice), and in addition…just the desires and feelings of LH in what will bring comfort and peace to the mind if there is an inner struggle of feeling like there is duplicitous living.
It all makes for no one right or wrong way to do things…no certainty of success or failure…no clear “cut and paste” advice to know how to do it.
I agree with DA, that if the feeling is a desire to get the bishop to understand and approve or at least acknowledge the choice, I honestly don’t think that will happen.
But I also don’t think the bishop hasn’t ever received any other letters from anyone like this. I hear bishops talk about it often. It happens, they are becoming more aware of people who feel this way and that it is more complex than just sinners or lazy folk. They may not understand it though…and don’t know if they can until they have a serious conundrum that makes them question things responsibly and deeply (if ever).
My input…don’t do it for others. Let others do and believe what they will. Make your choices to do what you need to so that you can have peace. Sometimes, a letter can do that. As mom3 has written before…sometimes writing it is more important than sending it to anyone.
So…to the original question…LH…if you are doing it for the bishop…I would try to convince you to take DA’s advice…he will likely not get it and it will likely not lead to approval or validation. If your motives are not that…but to try to be respectful in explaining something about the ward…like callings or avoiding confrontations when people keep asking to give assignments or something…that can lead to something of worth to set the boundary and ask for his acknowledgment of your boundary and where you set it, regardless of whether he will ever understand what it means. And finally…there may be some opportunity to save some relationship part with the bishop, or half friend, if you assure him it isn’t the other reasons…to avoid some of the false assumptions.
Those are my thoughts still. What I like about LH’s approach is that it is very kind, very thought-out, very humble, very mature and not rash.
I would probably edit the letter to make it very short…perhaps limit to one paragraph (unlike this post of mine which goes on and on), if it ends up being the right thing for you to do. Short and sweet, with edits and approval from DW.
If it feels right to “Come Clean”, do it. Personally, I wouldn’t do it. My reason is: once it’s out there, you can’t get it back. Any options are gone.
Under similar circumstances, I would go to the Bishop & ask to go to lunch or dinner. A neutral location away from church & talk to him as a friend.
In my mind, I would ask myself, what is the purpose for coming clean?
amateurparent wrote:Don’t expect lots of drama.
I think that is good advice.
Minyan Man wrote:I would go to the Bishop & ask to go to lunch or dinner.
…I like that idea as well. I have often had very different casual conversations with folks than official ones in bishop/SP offices. There are some things they just can’t say over the pulpit or in an official capacity. But sometimes they have family members or have been exposed to things that they are more aware of the complexities of things than they show as the leader of the ward where they feel a responsibility to shepherd a flock.
I had a lunch with my bishop the other day. We ended up talking about way more things I hadn’t planned on talking about. It makes it more “real” as a personal thing…instead of “bishopy” thing.
amateurparent wrote:
Culturally, it is acceptable to be inactive.It is not acceptable to question doctrine or history. Members learn how to share the gospel and how to handle being attacked. Too often, those are the only two scripts they know. They don’t know how to discuss the history or doctrine of the church with someone who is taking a step away from full belief. Too many have been taught that anyone who questions is an apostate. They end up using their script for “How do I defend the church when I am attacked for my beliefs?” The script tells them, “Bear your testimony as no one can argue with that.” Too many people do not know what to say or do after that. They can share their testimony and use it as a mic drop. Only, it isn’t a mic drop.
Because it fits with the still-prevailing assumption: lazy, sinning, offended, overly-intellectual.Quote:I wish the church would teach a script for how to have a real conversation about religion — including history, doctrine, and personal beliefs
Sunday School, seminary, institute?Quote:outside the mainstream church dogma.
Never mind.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.