Post-FC information-gathering best practices

Reuben. It is amazing how we have the same basic experience. Glad you are here and I hope you find peace.

My experience is also very similar to yours, Reuben. It really had/has nothing to do with whether Joseph Smith was a prophet or a polygamist or anything else. It had/has everything to do with whether God is really there and if so, does he really have my back? For a time, the answer to both those questions was “no.” Now I can say I choose to believe there is a God, but my view of that God is very similar to yours.

I get your web analogy, but I compare mine to a building which was leveled and over time I have been reconstructing that building of faith. I did use some of rubble of the old building and I have used some new stuff. Other parts of the rubble are either still there awaiting a decision on whether they will fit or not while others are discarded.

And like Mom3, I have chosen to make Jesus Christ the foundation of that faith. Also like Mom3 I studied only the gospels (without 3 Nephi) at first. I still read almost exclusively from the gospels, but I do now sometimes include 3 Nephi (and the BoM in general as long as it agrees with the Bible). I rarely read D&C and never Abraham or Moses. I do take into account the writings/words of some of our modern prophets and apostles. I don’t know that Jesus was real or that he did any of the stuff attributed to him. I believe he was real, I hope he can do at least some of what the Bible says he can. That is the only hope I have.

I don’t go to the ex-Mormon sites, they are too negative and antagonistic. I don’t go to other “tween” sites where there is lots of negativity and antagonism. By the same token, I also have trouble with the ultra-Orthodox sites and don’t go there often. If I’m looking for another perspective on a religious principle (or doctrine), I do often look at sites of other churches and general Google searches. I tend to look at multiple translations of the same scripture when I am trying to figure something out. And I ponder. I ponder quite a bit, actually. I think I am taking ownership of my personal beliefs and while other sources contribute to what I come to believe, no single other opinion or viewpoint is mine.

“What is my purpose?” : Trying to answer that question left me in the dark for a long time.

During the initial phases of my faith crisis I was consumed by information gathering. I did some of what you mentioned; consider the source, consider the source’s motivations, is it a first, second, or third-hand account, can it be corroborated by other people, etc. …and no matter what the answers to those questions were I’d read it anyway. The answers to those questions determined how much weight I assigned things but I took it all in, as much as I could find. It was an addictive and life consuming exercise. I’d often spend 6+ hours per day on the endeavor and it lasted for a long, long time.

I got to the point where I didn’t really care how reliable something was, it came down to a matter of perspective. What I was reading was a person’s truth. Conflicts were okay because different people have different, evolving perspectives. A lot of the capital “T” Truth came out in the wash. My quest for Truth waned and I found a new quest for connection.

Most of the studies was trying to discover everything I could about my LDS faith but in the early days of my faith crisis I also read a scripture from other faiths. I figured I’d get more out of reading the Quran, the Bhagavad-Gita, etc. than I would out of reading the BoM one more time. Plus those scriptures helped billions of people find a connection with god for hundreds, even thousands of years. It seemed worthwhile to read them.

I’ve started repairing the web by answering questions.

If you don’t mind me messing with your analogy… maybe the web can be repaired with threads that are answers and threads that are questions. I’ve come to a place of peace with certain questions in life. Sometimes an unanswered question can repair the web in ways that an answered question cannot.

What did you do that worked, or didn’t work? What do you wish you had done differently? What did you do that you’re glad you did?

When I was in the thick of things I wished that I could get to a place where I no longer cared, a place where I could let go… but the 6+ hour days continued well beyond that first desire. It was a forest fire that had to run out of fuel and I never knew how much fuel was left. If you feel that way, don’t worry, it will run its course when it runs its course, up until that point the information gathering is still an important part of your journey. If you don’t feel that way, don’t worry. Maybe that’s my takeaway. “Don’t worry.” Cue Bobby McFerrin.

Now I’ve forgotten most of the things I’ve read 😳 but that brings a different kind of comfort.

So many great ideas! Please don’t take it personally if I don’t quote most of it to reply, because I’d have to quote the whole thread..

Welcome Reuben – I was out of town when you posted your intro. Glad to have you actively among us. The more voices we have the more we grow.

Thanks, mom3. I don’t know if you lean academic like I do, but I know I can always count on you to share something wise. I really appreciate that.

So, no pressure!

I wasn’t ready to give up scripture’s then. So I narrowed my reading down to Christ only scriptures. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and 3rd Nephi. They are still all the scripture I read.

And like Mom3, I have chosen to make Jesus Christ the foundation of that faith. Also like Mom3 I studied only the gospels (without 3 Nephi) at first. I still read almost exclusively from the gospels, but I do now sometimes include 3 Nephi (and the BoM in general as long as it agrees with the Bible).

I have a leather-bound NIV Study Bible that I love to pieces and used to read all the time – until I decided to read the Old Testament and lost steam somewhere around Isaiah. It might be time to break it back out.

We have a fantastic quote wall, and a thread on StayLDS type resources. Thumb through them.

I think I’ve been through about half of the links. Thanks for the reminder that they’re there.

And share what you have done. Including the great conversations you have with your wife. We all need spouse ideas.

Oooh, see, this is what I meant by “wise.”

I get your web analogy, but I compare mine to a building which was leveled and over time I have been reconstructing that building of faith. I did use some of rubble of the old building and I have used some new stuff. Other parts of the rubble are either still there awaiting a decision on whether they will fit or not while others are discarded.

I had your building analogy in mind when I made the web analogy. I like it a lot: I think it illustrates very well the “crisis” part of a faith crisis, and it allows for the concept of reuse. The web feels a more like a fuzzy propositional system to me, and I guess I haven’t found a lot to reuse yet. Both analogies illustrate collateral damage to related beliefs. Maybe… maybe I need to think of my assumptive reality like it’s a building… made of webs… :crazy:

Brian used to say that it is like you were a child of God and now have grown to take your seat at the table as an adult of God.

This explains nicely why I don’t think I’ll ever go back to the way I was: in the midst of all this loss, I feel like I’ve grown and gained perspective and autonomy.

I worry about looking down on the “children,” though. This is the same worry I have about buying into Fowler’s stages of faith. Both give us a script we can too easily use to judge people who aren’t moving through it quickly enough. And I wonder if these things stick in our minds because they make us feel better about ourselves more than because of their explanatory power.

I don’t want to knock either idea too hard, though. “Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful.”

I got to the point where I didn’t really care how reliable something was, it came down to a matter of perspective. What I was reading was a person’s truth. Conflicts were okay because different people have different, evolving perspectives. A lot of the capital “T” Truth came out in the wash. My quest for Truth waned and I found a new quest for connection.

This is weird. I used to regard other people’s related experiences much more in that way pre-FC. I think I might have drifted from it because I’m still doing so much damage control. So many things seem to be about me right now, even when I’m ostensibly trying to determine more objective truth about the church.

I’ve started repairing the web by answering questions.

If you don’t mind me messing with your analogy… maybe the web can be repaired with threads that are answers and threads that are questions. I’ve come to a place of peace with certain questions in life. Sometimes an unanswered question can repair the web in ways that an answered question cannot.

Oh, now you’ve got me started. Well done.

There are questions in my field of study that function this way, such as the truth of P = NP and the Riemann Hypothesis. Actual answers would be world-changing in ways tangible to normal human beings, but it’s possible that the answers are unknowable. In the meantime, the pursuit of answers to these questions gives a mind-boggling amount of structure and guidance to other useful lines of inquiry.

I’m afraid that beyond this analogy, I don’t know where to start. Do you have an example that means a lot to you?

When I was in the thick of things I wished that I could get to a place where I no longer cared, a place where I could let go… but the 6+ hour days continued well beyond that first desire. It was a forest fire that had to run out of fuel and I never knew how much fuel was left. If you feel that way, don’t worry, it will run its course when it runs its course, up until that point the information gathering is still an important part of your journey. If you don’t feel that way, don’t worry. Maybe that’s my takeaway. “Don’t worry.” Cue Bobby McFerrin.

This is really helpful. Thanks.

Something I’ve learned in the FC/spiritual growth process is that confirmation bias is alive and well no matter where you hang your belief. It’s difficult to shake and we all do it to some extent.

More fuel on the forest fire. Thanks! 😆

Rather, I’ve moved to just finding things I WANT to believe in, without worrying whether they are true or not. Sometimes things are just worth believing in… like love, eternal families, loving heavenly parents, a savior who cares about us. … and that good will always triumph over evil.

I like this idea a lot.

Brian used to say that it is like you were a child of God and now have grown to take your seat at the table as an adult of God.

This explains nicely why I don’t think I’ll ever go back to the way I was: in the midst of all this loss, I feel like I’ve grown and gained perspective and autonomy.

I worry about looking down on the “children,” though. This is the same worry I have about buying into Fowler’s stages of faith. Both give us a script we can too easily use to judge people who aren’t moving through it quickly enough. And I wonder if these things stick in our minds because they make us feel better about ourselves more than because of their explanatory power.

I don’t want to knock either idea too hard, though. “Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful.”

It’s certainly possible to fall into that trap. I think worrying about falling into a trap can help people avoid the trap. The trap is on the radar and is being guarded against.

I try my best to not view one stage as better than another. When I was an orthodox believer I was content. When I transitioned out of orthodoxy, upon reflection I discovered that I was content. I moved from a state of contentment to a state of contentment. Now, which state was above the other? Which state was below the other?

Returning to the child/adult of god analogy, there are qualities that a child possesses that adults are envious of, there are qualities that an adult possesses that a child is envious of. The grass is always greener… perhaps the grass is more useful when enjoyed than when compared. To strain the child/adult analogy even further, as an adult have you ever decided to sit at the kid’s table instead of the adult table at a family gathering? If so, why? Perhaps because the adults were being more “childlike” than the children.

Didn’t Jesus say something about becoming like little children? I guess my point is that one doesn’t have to be preferable to the other. Each have their qualities, things that offer comfort.

Do you have an example that means a lot to you?

Means a lot to me? No, I don’t want to take it that seriously so here’s an example using the Matrix Revolutions. After Matrix Reloaded everyone was left scratching their heads. What was all that about? The movie created more questions than it did answers. Fans speculated and tried to guess what direction the next installment in the series would take. Then Matrix Revolutions came out. Personally, nearly all the fan fiction and speculations I read prior to the release of the third movie was better than the actual third movie. In this case the question “What will happen in the next movie?” was more entertaining than the answer – what actually happened in the third movie. Leaving the question unanswered fueled people’s inspiration, imagination, and something else that starts with the letter “i” to complete the alliteration. Definitive answers sometimes put and end to all that.

Not everyone has seen the Matrix movies but I hear the show called Lost (I’ve never seen it) drove people nuts with unanswered questions. It may depend on the personality type but wasn’t it the unanswered questions that generated all the interest and what drove all the discussion.

Can you read an engaging mystery novel and put the book down the chapter before the big reveal?