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Dr. Julie de Azevedo Hanks has done a second post in a 2-post series that is well worth some discussion. In her first post, she listed 25 things not to say to someone who is leaving the church. In this post, it’s advice to someone who is leaving on what not to say to their believing loved ones. The two lists are pretty similar because both groups are often in the mood to prove they are right and the other one is wrong. Both feel defensive of their viewpoints. Quote:Here are 25 things NOT to say to believing loved ones after you leave the Church (even if you believe it’s true)*:
1) You’re being lied to.
2) I just don’t know how you still believe.
3) You HAVE to read the CES letter.
4) How can you still go to a Church given what’s said in the Church essays?
5) How can you justify belonging to a corrupted organization?
6) I used to think the way you do. Now I see things clearly.
7) When are you going to start thinking for yourself?
Do you know how much the General Authorities get paid?9) Did you hear about the recently leaked videos?
10) I left because I didn’t want my kids to be brainwashed.
11) I feel so sorry for you.
12) How can you stay in such a sexist organization?
13) What you’re saying is a logical fallacy.
14) Jesus wouldn’t want anything to do with the Church today.
15) If you knew what I knew about Joseph Smith…
16) I can’t respect you if you believe in the Church.
17) You’re complicit in every hurtful thing the Church does.
18) Do you know where all of your tithing goes?
19) Believing in God is like believing in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, etc.
20) How can you keep your name on the rolls of an evil institution that hurts so many people?
21) Think of how many people the Church could have helped instead of investing so much in real estate.
22) If you really loved me, you’d listen to all of my concerns.
23) I can’t see how someone as smart as you can be fooled by such crazy beliefs.
24) You believe in the Church because it’s easier than questioning and studying.
25) Religion is the opiate of the masses.
Here are 25 things TO say to a believing loved one:
1) I love you.
2) We can believe different things and still be close.
3) I trust you to do what is best for you.
4) I want you to be happy.
5) What can I do to support you right now?
6) I know you don’t take your religious commitments lightly.
7) I respect your integrity and your strength.
You will always have a place here, no matter what.9) I can’t imagine how hard this has been for you.
10) Tell me more about your journey (and then really listen).
11) I’d love to continue to pray with the family.
12) You have legitimate reasons for staying active in the Church.
13) The world needs more people like you.
14) If anyone asks me about your belief in the Church, I’ll tell him or her to talk to you directly.
15) Your relationship with the Church has nothing to do with our relationship.
16) My love for you is constant and unconditional.
17) Even though I don’t believe in the Church, I believe you when you say you do know it’s true.
18) You’re a good parent, son, daughter, etc.
19) You’re a good person.
20) I’m not worried about you.
21) We all have our own unique paths.
22) Agency is an amazing gift.
23) I don’t understand why you stay, but I want to understand.
24) I don’t know what to say.
25) I am here for you.
The comments on her first post (Things not to say to someone who has left the church) included some that were pretty “tough love” and defending telling your adult kids that you don’t approve of their choices. I think that’s a huge mistake, one that only results in having no relationship going forward. If your beliefs (on either side) are so fragile that you can’t talk to someone who sees things differently without feeling threatened by their views or without feeling you have to judge, warn, and disapprove, then you don’t really have a relationship, or you certainly won’t for long. What are your thoughts?
I really liked this commentGood stuff. Seriously good stuff. I was in a marriage class taught by some LDS church members. The bishops wife asked how to handle a disagreement where you know that your position is right because you are merely echoing the brethren. The teacher said, “In order to have communication you must frame things in such a way that acknowledges that you may be wrong.” I love the wisdom in that answer. “Here is where I stand and what I believe. I ask you to respect my position even though it may be wrong.” Also for a time I was in a pretty good free fall in regards to my religion and assumptive reality. I had some good talks with my mother in that time. After I had found my footing I asked her if she had ever worried about where I would land. She told me, “You have a good head and a better heart, I always knew you would figure it out.” I still get teary eyed thinking about it.
:thumbup: Roy wrote:I was in a marriage class taught by some LDS church members. The bishops wife asked how to handle a disagreement where you know that your position is right because you are merely echoing the brethren. The teacher said, “In order to have communication you must frame things in such a way that acknowledges that you may be wrong.” I love the wisdom in that answer. “Here is where I stand and what I believe. I ask you to respect my position even though it may be wrong.”
Also for a time I was in a pretty good free fall in regards to my religion and assumptive reality. I had some good talks with my mother in that time. After I had found my footing I asked her if she had ever worried about where I would land. She told me, “You have a good head and a better heart, I always knew you would figure it out.” I still get teary eyed thinking about it.
:thumbup:
Very nice to hear. I needed to hear that as I think within a few months I will be having a bit of a conversation with my mom on where I stand.That’s a long list. SamBee wrote:That’s a long list.
Interesting observation. I have come to feel that a ex-believer needs to drop all assumptions about getting others to see things the way they do and just love them. Which is exactly the same advice I would give to the believer talking with an ex/non-believer.I’d struggle remembering all these. There are some common threads running through it, but it is too prescriptive. SamBee wrote:I’d struggle remembering all these.
SamBee, let me provide the Readers Digest version for you:What not to say:
1) The reason you still believe is that you are not as smart as me
2) You must answer for all the faults of the Church
What to say:
1) I’m very happy the Church works so well for you
2) I hope we can still be friends
On Own Now wrote:SamBee wrote:I’d struggle remembering all these.
SamBee, let me provide the Readers Digest version for you:What not to say:
1) The reason you still believe is that you are not as smart as me
2) You must answer for all the faults of the Church
What to say:
1) I’m very happy the Church works so well for you
2) I hope we can still be friends
Ahh – a man of few words.And the converse would be that the believer talking to a non-believer would be the following:
What not to say:
1) The reason you lost your belief because unlike me, you are too smart for your good, you just have to have faith
2) The Church is perfect
What to say:
1) I hope you can find what brings you to God or works well for you
2) I hope we can still be friends
On Own Now wrote:SamBee wrote:I’d struggle remembering all these.
SamBee, let me provide the Readers Digest version for you:What not to say:
1) The reason you still believe is that you are not as smart as me
2) You must answer for all the faults of the Church
What to say:
1) I’m very happy the Church works so well for you
2) I hope we can still be friends
This is reasonable. I can’t disagree with this.
This is timely for me and my ward. Just last month one of our Gospel Doctrine teachers had a meltdown in class. He had read the essays, and went on in class about how we had been lied to and how the beliefs he had taught on his mission were lies and how he could not go on. We had a couple of discussions about it in Bishopric meetings, and finally last Sunday it came up in Ward council, brought up by the Sunday school president no less, who hadn’t been there and couldn’t seem to get the full story. We were well enlightened (I had also not been in the class) and the council discussed what to do. Without saying where I got my ideas, I shared some of the perspectives in this post, and I think for the most part people resonated with the idea, “He’s heard all the arguments, what he needs now is for everyone to just be his friend”. I hope so. I really like his thoughtful approach to leading the class discussions and discussing things in general, and I don’t want him to be gone too long. His wife and children are still bravely coming to meetings.
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