Home Page Forums General Discussion Study of the Gospel versus Study of Behavior

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  • #211181
    Anonymous
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    Roy mentioned a quote recently by a GA that “The study of the gospel changes behavior more than study of behavior changes behavior”.

    I’m not entirely convinced. As a psychology grad, and doing continuing studies in behavior, I see that the principles researchers have unearthed about behavior (operant conditioning, classical conditioning, rational emotive therapy, cognitive approaches to changing behavior) all have signficant impact on behavior. The gospel points us in a certain direction — goodness, virtue, etcetera, so in that sense, it points us to a class of behaviors that are inherently good, but that is not to throw out what the academics and practitioners have unearthed.

    I can give a lot of examples. Self-esteem — many behaviors flow from high and low self-esteem. And counselers, even LDS ones, dedicate much time to helping people with self-esteem issues. Although they reference the gospel, they also teach specific techniques for disciplining one’s thoughts into productive areas. I know that, having taken such therapy from an LDS social services counselor when I was on my mission. There are also people who lack the mental capacity to understand the gospel, and for those people operant and classical conditioning techniques can be the only source of behavior modification.

    To me, this quote is an extension of the church’s unwillingness to embrace current research “from the world” (as they put it), in favor of broad generalities. I agree that the quote doesn’t say “The study of the gospel changes behavior and the study of behavior doesn’t change behavior” — the quote doesn’t say that, but it seems to marginalize academic and technical knowledge about behavior modification more than I care to accept.

    Thoughts?

    #317148
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Here’s the talk it came from:

    Little Children by Boyd K. Packer

    Quote:

    The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel.

    Here are a few additional quotes to consider:

    Lowell L. Bennion wrote:

    Religion is not the only approach to truth or to an understanding of life. Life is exceedingly complex, intricate, and far beyond man’s ability to comprehend. We need to look at it from all sides: through the eyes of the scientist, the artist, the poet, the philosopher, simple folk of common sense, and the prophet. No one of these can give us a full view of life.

    Hugh B. Brown wrote:

    We are at home with the most advanced truths discovered by scientists and with all competent philosophic thought—with truth wherever found—because our religion enjoins in us a love of knowledge and education, encourages us to seek understanding through the broadening of our vision and the deepening of our insight.

    We are also taught that all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. In other words, if the study of behavior is true and can help change behavior it’s a part of the gospel/truth. The two are not at odds.

    It depends on what someone means by “the gospel” and it depends on the behaviors. Bottom line, I think good professional counseling would go further than hearing the restoration narrative one more time.

    #317149
    Anonymous
    Guest

    These are really good quotes. They show the importance of counterbalancing the sometimes extreme statements of

    GA’s with comments from other authorities. I like the idea that no one perspective has it all. Great post Nibbler.

    #317150
    Anonymous
    Guest

    WARNING: Sarcasm ahead!

    Bennion obviously has no clue what he’s talking about, he’s one of them academians. If he knew what he was doing he’d have been a GA. All that talk about humanitarianism and sociology and helping those in need outside the church setting clearly isn’t part of the gospel (translate church). He should have gotten a degree in something useful like business or law. If he’d just followed the prophet he would have been OK. Haven’t you read the Fourteen Fundamentals? Now that’s some gospel right there.

    (End sarcasm)

    #317151
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thank you for the original reference Nibbler. I was still in primary when that talk came out but I have read the quote a few times in manuals. The most recent time was in a marriage and family class. The takeaway was that we do not need to be overly concerned with whatever new finding children and family psychologists come out with. Base your family life on gospel/church principles and you will come out on top (and with an eternal reward to boot).

    nibbler wrote:

    The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel.

    I see this quote as part of a larger Modus Operondi of dismissing or minimizing outside information. One way that this plays out is to assume that the gospel will be a cure all panacea for whatever ails you. Suppose a young person comes to a priesthood leader with problems of SSA or M. Social science research might suggest that these “problems” are actually normal components of sexuality and human development. Whatever the circumstance, the leader need not spend much time listening, talking about it, or even understanding it. They can merely bare testimony and invite/challenge to live according to gospel precepts and watch problems tend to disappear (Full disclosure: some problems might not disappear fully until the next life).

    From the same Elder Packer talk comes the following:

    Quote:

    Secular doctrines have the advantage of convincing, tangible evidence. [They] seem to do better in gathering data on things that can be counted and measured.

    Doctrines which originate in the light, on the other hand, are more often supported by intangible impressions upon the spirit. We are left for the most part to rely on faith.

    But, in time, the consequences of following either will become visible enough.

    Overall I perceive a sense of arrogance that gospel knowledge trumps any other knowledge. If we take our understanding of the plan of salvation as the key to interpret all other information, then whatever does not support our position can be safely dismissed or at least set aside until we can better understand how it all fits harmoniously into the great plan of happiness.

    #317152
    Anonymous
    Guest

    How would someone believe this statement. Disclaimer- I haven’t read the whole talk. Did they do a study on this theory or are they just shooting from the hip?

    #317153
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel.

    There’s no doubt that if there’s one thing the Church is fairly good at it is controlling the behavior of its followers at least in terms of a few expectations like the WoW, no pre-marital sex, full-time missions, temple marriage, tithing, garments/modesty, etc. Maybe that’s what Packer was thinking about when he made this claim but if so I think he was giving way too much credit for this to the idea that the study of the doctrines will supposedly lead to a “mighty change of heart” and “no more disposition to do evil” on an individual and personal basis and not enough credit to simple family/social pressure where members often go along with these things in large part because other Mormons around them expect them to and will be very disappointed with them if they don’t. And as it turns out, most of these items on the checklist are typically externally visible to at least one or two other Church members most of the time for members that don’t ever deviate too far from the path for very long if at all.

    All you have to do is look at the relative lack of success of the Church’s disapproval of porn and masturbation to see that it’s not nearly as simple as Church members being told, “do this, don’t do that” because God supposedly said so and then their behavior will follow suit when no one is looking. And it’s not like most active members were once chain-smokers, alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. and then gave up these habits; in many cases it’s more like the Church helped prevent them from ever getting caught up in these habits in the first place or alienated and excluded many Church members that already drink, smoke, and/or had sex before they were married which gives an illusion of a higher rate of success on this front than there really is. But maybe the biggest question of all about this claim is whether it’s really fair to call much of this behavior the Church has pushed a clear improvement over the alternatives in the first place. To me it looks like many of these points are more about perpetuating LDS Mormonism and its established traditions than anything that actually benefits the individual members, society as a whole, etc. that much if at all in this life which for all we really know could possibly be the only life we will ever have.

    #317154
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Generally, studying why things happen and why they should change can help change those things faster than just studying those things. That is all I read into the quote in question.

    However, as commonly interpreted, it isn’t an incorrect quote. This, like most things, works better with a both/and approach than an either/or.

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