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March 10, 2017 at 2:47 pm #211221
Anonymous
GuestI just stumbled across this that tangentially offers a definition of “faith” that sums up my current relationship with the Church. This definition tracks well with my thoughts as I raised my hand to sustain the Q15 in our last ward conference.awesome post at Wheat & TaresAndrew S. wrote:But another model of faith — however unpalatable it may be — suggests the choice to be loyal even in sober acceptance of a lover’s infidelity. None other the Old Testament itself speaks of the relationship between God and Israel in these terms. […]
To be fair, perhaps this is a misapplication of these metaphors. In these cases, God is perfectly faithful, but Israel — his covenant people — are unfaithful. Can we say we are perfectly faithful and church leaders aren’t, or aren’t we all imperfect in ways?
And at what point is enough enough?
Those are two great questions.
To answer the first question, I’d say I’ve been faithful enough. I have near-perfect knowledge of all of my imperfections in this regard. There must be some I’ve missed, but I’ve been strongly encouraged by my “spouse” (the Church) to recognize every one of them and repent – and I’ve done that for 20 years now.
Has the Church been faithful to me? It hasn’t, but unknowingly, and with a self-assurance that borders on narcissism, so of course it would say it’s been absolutely faithful. If it could speak, it would probably say something like, “I’ve done all these great things for you, so the least you could do is
believe me. If you don’t, it’s because you didn’t obey me enough, and if you don’t keep quiet about it, I’ll accuse you and maybe even divorce you so everyone knows how horrible you are.” This isn’t just body language (i.e. culture), it’s also the head talking. In our multi-stake conference on Sunday, Elder Ballard strongly implied that people like me are spiritually dead, and said that study, prayer and fasting would keep that from happening. The contrapositive of this formula – if you’re spiritually dead, then you didn’t do enough – is an easy conclusion. For adults, reasoning by contrapositives is natural: if you know “if it rains, then the grass gets wet” is true, and the grass isn’t wet, then obviously it didn’t rain.
So yeah, I’m acting in loyalty to an organization that did good things for me, but also set me up to fall in order to maintain its self-image of literal divinity, and which can’t admit fault and therefore blames me for everything wrong with our relationship. That’s faith now, to me. Calling it “unpalatable” grossly undersells the bitter taste.
To answer the second question, I honestly don’t know when enough is enough.
My wife has an aunt who stayed faithful to an abusive alcoholic for decades, until he was diagnosed with cancer, had to sober up, and got baptized and was sealed to her. Is she a good role model for me? Did she get through it by remembering the good? Blaming alcoholism? Feeling solidarity with all the other abused spouses out there? Maybe finding them and helping them? Growing a really thick skin? I think I remember talk about how she kept an eternal perspective, but I can’t do that.
It might be desperation that finally drives me away. I’ve averaged about two hours of useful work per work day since November. (FC was mid-October.) I don’t know what’s causing it. I think it worsened after I asked to be released as YM president. I suspect it has to do with fear of rejection. I test positive for PTSD in
. (PTSD doesn’t map perfectly to the effects of a faith crisis, but it’s pretty close.) Something needs to change soon.online assessmentsMy testimony: I know the Church is almost certainly not true, in a literal sense. Even though it’s an abusive backstabber to people who say that, I know it does good. I hope for change, but I’m afraid it won’t change until it realizes it’s dying of cancer.
March 10, 2017 at 3:35 pm #317738Anonymous
GuestMarch 10, 2017 at 4:02 pm #317739Anonymous
GuestReuben wrote:This isn’t just body language (i.e. culture), it’s also the head talking. In our multi-stake conference on Sunday, Elder Ballard strongly implied that people like me are spiritually dead, and said that study, prayer and fasting would keep that from happening. The contrapositive of this formula – if you’re spiritually dead, then you didn’t do enough – is an easy conclusion. For adults, reasoning by contrapositives is natural: if you know “if it rains, then the grass gets wet” is true, and the grass isn’t wet, then obviously it didn’t rain.
What you said here reminded me of a chart I saw outlining Fowler’s stages of faith, linked
.hereIn the description for stage 4 it says something interesting.
Quote:Ironically, the Stage 3 people usually think that Stage 4 people have become “backsliders” when in reality they have actually moved forward.
If that much is true I’d expect Elder Ballard to say something like that. He is relating a truth that pertains to his worldview. He’s playing his part in the cosmic dance. Resistance someone can use to build up strength, or strength to help someone deal with another type of resistance. This would also explain why the answers from the top almost always involve an attempt to shore up a member’s commitment levels. Do the Sabbath more. Read the scriptures more. Pray more. Etc.
Quote:And at what point is enough enough?
You’re touching on one of my “deals” about whether people should stay engaged with the church or move on. I don’t know the answer either but to make my comment I’ll piggyback on the story about your aunt.
There are people that see your aunt’s sacrifice as being the right decision, she did not give up when the going got tough. If your aunt left her abusive husband there would be people that saw your aunt’s decision to leave her husband as being completely justified. Sometimes the people in the “made the right decision by staying” camp frown on the aunts that leave their husbands in those types of situations. Sometimes the people in the “made the right decision by leaving” camp frown on the aunts that stay with their husbands in those types of situations.
Which aunts make the right choice? Is there a correct choice and a wrong choice?
I think the need to be validated weighs heavily on our decision making process and on how we evaluate decisions we’ve already made. We want to feel like we’re making or made the right choice and we often reach out to other people to help us make that determination. It’s human nature.
I know this is StayLDS and everything but one thing that bothers me is when remaining in the church after experiencing a faith crisis is presented as the more enlightened path, as if the choice to leave is the lesser path. It’s a serious pet peeve of mine… and I’m at a place in my journey where I’ve made the decision to stay. To me it’s not that one way is correct and the other incorrect. They are just different paths, with no inherit good or bad associated with either decision.
So to me asking when is enough enough might be less about how much more of something I can stand and more about when I finally feel free to make a decision that’s free of worry about how others might view me.
Reuben wrote:Has the Church been faithful to me? It hasn’t, but unknowingly, and with a self-assurance that borders on narcissism, so of course it would say it’s been absolutely faithful. If it could speak, it would probably say something like, “I’ve done all these great things for you, so the least you could do is believe me. If you don’t, it’s because you didn’t obey me enough, and if you don’t keep quiet about it, I’ll accuse you and maybe even divorce you so everyone knows how horrible you are.”
I understand the sentiment. I’ve often seen parallels between aspects of church culture and the type of abuse that can be inflicted by someone with narcissistic personality disorder. “Splitting” is often present in people with NPD. Splitting is viewing someone or something as being all good or all bad, everything is either black or white with no shades of gray. Another trait is a feeling of uniqueness and superiority when comparing oneself to others. I think these traits are present, to some degree or other, largely because the church is a “stage 3” organization that places a great deal of emphasis on exclusive claims to divine truth and authority. It’s not that the culture or the leaders (or people that have NPD for that matter) set out to abuse people, I think it’s more of a natural byproduct that results from some of the core beliefs of things being either right or wrong and a belief in there being such a thing as a one True church.
To be fair it’s not just an issue with LDS church culture. We confront these issues in all walks of life. Church isn’t exempt from the ills of all walks of life.
March 10, 2017 at 6:56 pm #317740Anonymous
GuestReuben wrote:
I’ve averaged about two hours of useful work per work day since November. (FC was mid-October.)
Not trying to detract from anything you said, but in your intro post you mentioned that it’s hard to get medication where you are. Are you still off your meds? Could that possibly be related to, or at least contributing to, the lack of productivity?
Reuben wrote:
And at what point is enough enough?
Echoing nibbler, to me, it’s not a question of when I’ve suffered enough, but rather figuring out what path will allow me to live life more fully and authentically. And like most things in life, it’s not a binary choice. There are a plethora of paths available to choose from, and it’s ok to explore some of the most promising before making a decision.March 10, 2017 at 9:52 pm #317737Anonymous
Guestydeve wrote:
Reuben wrote:
I’ve averaged about two hours of useful work per work day since November. (FC was mid-October.)
Not trying to detract from anything you said, but in your intro post you mentioned that it’s hard to get medication where you are. Are you still off your meds? Could that possibly be related to, or at least contributing to, the lack of productivity?
That’s always a pertinent question. I’m taking the right medication now, and I’ve had a good day here and there while doing some pretty boring work. It seems to be doing its job.
March 15, 2017 at 5:41 pm #317741Anonymous
GuestReuben wrote:
So yeah, I’m acting in loyalty to an organization that did good things for me, but also set me up to fall in order to maintain its self-image of literal divinity, and which can’t admit fault and therefore blames me for everything wrong with our relationship. That’s faith now, to me. Calling it “unpalatable” grossly undersells the bitter taste.
I honestly love the mental image you conjure here. Now metaphors have limited usefulness but allow me to play around with this one.
My own mindset and involvement with the church at this point in my life could be viewed as separated (not divorced) with joint custody of the kids. I am civil with and can enjoy time with the church now and then. I also recognize some of my triggers and can avoid those scenarios. The biggest difference is in my perspective of my self worth. There was a time when the church’s opinion of me loomed huge in my thinking. Now I can sort of separate myself mentally and say, “Who really cares what the church thinks? Not me.
“
This also works with the metaphor of Nosey, judgmental, and know-it-all extended family. They are not necessarily bad people and it can be good to see them and catch up with them at the family reunion. But also establishing boundaries is important and in the end you need to come home from the reunion knowing that they do not live your life and that your life choices are just as valid as anyone else’s. Then we mentally prepare for next year’s family reunion.
In both of my metaphors it becomes important to be able to limit contact and influence (at least to some extent) of the other. Reclaim your path as it were.
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