Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

It sounds like a part of the process is developing self confidence in becoming an “adult of god” or “agent unto ourselves.”

This may necessitate a thread of its own but what does spirituality mean to you?

Yeah, except I’m not at all sure the peace I feel is validation for my point of view or where I’m at or that I am on the right path (if there is a right path). It’s more of a “it’ll be OK” feeling. I get the same feelings when I am experiencing a difficulty. No assurance of anything, no new job, no whatever – just peace. I have commented here before about how I don’t think that peace is enough sometimes.

But like you, SD, I don’t only get that feeling during or after prayer. I do feel it at church sometimes, and interestingly (to me) in meetings like high council. I feel it sometimes during hymns, sometimes when I ponder things, sometimes when I read scriptures, and sometimes seemingly for no reason at all – it just comes (often this is outside and by myself).

I also reduced prayer significantly (altogether for awhile) when my crisis hit and for the same reason. My view of God has changed significantly since then and so have my prayers. Likewise, so has what I perceive to be the Spirit – and I’m still not sure what I feel is actually the Spirit. The peace thing has some significance in that respect because it’s not what I’m asking for.

Have you ever had an honest prayer with God about your feelings about the church? Indicating the problems you see, how it impacts your faith?

I stopped praying(privately, I still pray when called on at church or home) about 2 years ago. A large reason why is because I felt abandoned by God. I had a very difficult family situation that I prayed for resolution and help with for a couple of years. It ended in heart break and seemingly without any intervention by God. At some point, maybe about a year ago, I thought that maybe Heavenly Father had left me, but surely if there was a Heavenly Mother she would comfort me. I prayed to her several times and expressed my hurt and anger and sought Her wisdom. But I still felt nothing. I don’t know if the problem is me–maybe my heart is too hard–or not. But either way, it lead me to feel much more agnostic. I wouldn’t say I am atheist, because I am indecisive and non-committal and I want to leave room for change. So yes, I have called out to the heavens about my feelings with the church and my faith issues, but for me, all I heard was an echo.

Have you ever had an honest prayer with God about your feelings about the church? Indicating the problems you see, how it impacts your faith?

I, like others in this thread, have changed the way I approach prayer. I no longer value the formulaic 4 step prayer program as I no longer connect to that. Other than when called on to pray or when praying vocally in my family, I don’t apply that pattern to my personal prayers.

In fact, to an orthodox believer I probably no longer pray at all. But I do a lot of meditation, pondering, thinking deeply, and dialoguing with myself about my feelings, thoughts, and desires. If there is a God, he can hear those thoughts just as well as when I followed a more formal approach.

But I feel more now than I ever did before. Sometimes when I think deeply about unorthodox positions, such as the Book of Mormon not being a literal historical record, I start to see puzzle pieces fit together in ways that never really made sense to me as a TBM. And it is in those moments of things clicking and making sense that I feel powerful emotions of clarity, understanding, and peace.

Now whether those feelings are from God, or just the human emotion that comes from understanding, from epiphany, I don’t know. But I do not believe I am being deceived because things are clearer now to me than they’ve ever been and I feel more at peace with my current path than I ever did as a TBM. Furthermore, I feel generally happier and more excited about life. That’s not to say that everything is roses and butterflies, but it is exciting to feel this way. It’s like my eyes have been opened in a new way. And I don’t want to go back. Maybe things were simpler, but not nearly as exciting or beautiful as when I look at the world as not just black and white. There are way more colors this way, even if they don’t all make perfect sense.

Have you ever struggled and struggled to understand something and finally it clicked in a way that made total sense? Kind of like what SD described with his class. When that happens to me in my professional life or in my spiritual, the feelings of clarity, light, and excitement (“burning in the bosom?”) are the same. And that has often been my feelings as I’ve come to unorthodox conclusions for myself, through thoughtful study, pondering, and my own personal version of “prayer.”

Have you ever struggled and struggled to understand something and finally it clicked in a way that made total sense? Kind of like what SD described with his class. When that happens to me in my professional life or in my spiritual, the feelings of clarity, light, and excitement (“burning in the bosom?”) are the same. And that has often been my feelings as I’ve come to unorthodox conclusions for myself, through thoughtful study, pondering, and my own personal version of “prayer.”

Not when it comes to the church. In real life, many times. There was a quote I read years ago that you need to empower people when you delegate, but I saw that fail so many times. I learned that the principle only applies when you delegate to talented, committed, well resourced people. When they are not committed, lack skills, and have no backup/mentor, then that expression about delegation is not accurate.

Same with the expression “Delegation takes discipline”. I understand what it means no on SO many levels….those epiphanies are great, but I wouldn’t call them spiritual.

I will say this — taking the path I have taken has been a relief. First, I don’t have to do so many things that I found unfulfilling and a waste of time as a TBM. I feel self-directed, and when I give money to causes, I feel like a REAL philanthropist. I love it. I used to pray in faith for things to happen, but felt like you do when you sip on a straw and the cup is empty. I don’t feel that way anymore when I pray, as my prayers are not about faith or inviting the powers of heaven to rain their blessings upon me. They are about thanks and sharing my feelings and that’s it — maybe some prayers for safety for my family, but all that happens with a grain of salt. We all know evil falls on the good and the bad alike.

Have you ever experienced spiritual support in your current path, even though it’s not orthodox? And has your new path yet produced the happiness that tends to breed spirituality?

Yes, and yes.

It’s also leading to me to resent more and more the school I attend. I just have to survive one more year…

For myself, it’s merely a mind game to try and determine whether the emotions I feel when things are making sense and are clear are from God or just human emotions. The point for me is that if those emotions feel good, are exciting, and make me feel happier about life, then I seek after the cause of those emotions and stop worrying about the ultimate source. They are good for my well-being, so they are good for me. Even if the ideas provoking those emotions are unorthodox, they lead me to do good things.

The part in bold is where I am at right now. You said it better than I did previously.

In the dark ages of flip books when I served a mission the oft asked question “how do we know it’s the Spirit” was asked at a zone conference. The MPs wife, daughter of a very prominent GA at the time, fielded the question with something very much like “there’s never any harm in doing good.” It’s hard to argue with that. I also appreciated Pres. Eyring in the recent face-to-face thing – he was somewhat frank about having had the question about whether it’s the Spirit or not and answered that for him it’s about peace. In other words, if it is accompanied by a feeling of peace it is likely of the Spirit.

Side note: while laying awake last night I realized Pres. Monson is the last apostle called before my membership in the church. I remember when Nelson and Oaks were called. I’m old. There was of course a huge gap between TSM’s call and RMN’s and DHO’s.