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  • #211299
    Anonymous
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    It’s always bothered me how flimsily the church stands against swearing. Flimsy in the sense that it is not well supported by scripture, though the principle behind it is not necessarily a bad one. I don’t swear much and I don’t usually feel good about it when I do, but it doesn’t really bother me to hear it.

    Now, before I go deeper, I would like to make one key distinction:

    Taking the name of the Lord in vain is not the same as swearing.

    The former is literally in the ten commandments and is pretty well understood to refer to things like “Oh my god” or shouting “Jesus Christ” in frustration. This is the only thing that really bothers me, especially when members do it. I’d rather hear a hundred consecutive F-bombs come out of a member’s mouth than to hear them profane the name of God.

    Swearing though… Not much on that. A common misinterpretation within the Sermon on the Mount (so common it’s codified by the footnotes) is that when Jesus says something like “swear not at all,” swearing is understood to mean profanity, when really the context suggests something completely unrelated to profanity… And that’s about all when it comes to swearing. It’s backed by a commonly misinterpreted scripture taken out of context and cited over and over in publication after publication, GA after GA. It wouldn’t be so annoying if it were at least backed by “this comes from modern revelation” but it simply isn’t. It gets even funnier once you take into account stories where Joseph Smith threw a party full of alcohol, gambling, and swearing when new people arrived in Kirtland just to loosen them up and show them he was pretty much a regular person and shatter the pedestal they would tend to put him on as the prophet.

    I don’t see swearing as a good thing, but I think we focus far too much on it when it really doesn’t matter all that much. Yeah, we should probably try to be intelligent, dignified, and respectful when we speak, but not swearing is only part of that and doesn’t exactly apply to every situation. Like if you drop a ten pound frozen turkey on your foot, I don’t think Heavenly Father would hold it against you if you let out a few “F***”s as you writhe in pain. And then other times, it just takes a well-placed swear word to give something its full impact. And then there’s dialogue, which really shouldn’t be neutered for the sake of avoiding a few words society arbitrarily decided are uncouth… Which, by the way, is culturally/historically relative.

    #318763
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I wrote the following on Mormon Matters back in 2009:

    “Modern-Day Swearing: Will Our Bastardized Words Damn Us to Hell?”

    (http://www.mormonmatters.org/2009/02/03/modern-day-swearing-will-our-bastardized-words-damn-us-to-hell/)

    It is too long to excerpt, but it makes the same point about how we have mistakenly used scripture to forbid something that isn’t forbidden in scripture. Feel free to copy excerpts for discussion here, if you want to do so.

    #318764
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’m not advocating the frivolous flinging of four letter words, but a well placed “€π¢&” sometimes communicates very well.

    Also, swearing might just make us stronger. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170505085015.htm

    #318765
    Anonymous
    Guest

    For me swearing comes down to how I feel about myself after I do it. I feel like Shuh afterwards and it makes a bad impression in professional circles. Sometimes builds relationships of trust in circles where swearing is the norm but even then it’s not a sure thing.

    Best to not do it…

    #318766
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Beefster wrote:


    Taking the name of the Lord in vain is not the same as swearing.

    The former is literally in the ten commandments and is pretty well understood to refer to things like “Oh my god” or shouting “Jesus Christ” in frustration. This is the only thing that really bothers me, especially when members do it. I’d rather hear a hundred consecutive F-bombs come out of a member’s mouth than to hear them profane the name of God.

    Swearing though… Not much on that. A common misinterpretation within the Sermon on the Mount (so common it’s codified by the footnotes) is that when Jesus says something like “swear not at all,” swearing is understood to mean profanity, when really the context suggests something completely unrelated to profanity…

    Some are of the opinion that “taking the lord’s name in vain” isn’t the same thing as saying “Jesus Christ,” “OMG,” “GD,” etc., they might say that this interpretation would similarly be taking a verse out of context. I don’t know for certain but I think they’re of the opinion that taking the name of the lord in vain refers to situations where people claim divine authority (sanctioned by god) but are doing things that are contrary to the will of god and doing so in god’s name.

    I’ve also heard taking the name of the lord in vain used in reference to willfully sinning. When we’re baptized we “take upon us” the name of Jesus Christ. If you do this with no intention of actually following Jesus I suppose it could be said that you took god’s name [upon you] in vain.

    But it doesn’t have to be one interpretation or the other. It can be some combination or none of the above. It’s up to you.

    I do wonder though. How could I take the name of god in vain via a swearing pronouncement when I don’t really know god’s name. God, Elohim, Lord, Christ. Those are titles, not names. Splitting hairs. :P Thou shalt not use god’s titles as swears.

    Beefster wrote:


    This is the only thing that really bothers me, especially when members do it. I’d rather hear a hundred consecutive F-bombs come out of a member’s mouth than to hear them profane the name of God.

    And for me that’s the real reason not to do it. Because it really bothers some people. Some people have a really low threshold for tolerating swears. Too €π¢&ing low if you ask me. But know your company, know your environment.

    #318767
    Anonymous
    Guest

    The whole of the commandment is, “Don’t give offense. Don’t take offense”. I’m sure that’s in the bible somewhere (though a re-translation may be in order). By making other’s comfortable, and bringing peace into their lives, you recieve an equal measure of peace yourself. But if you bring conflict, you get conflict. Swearing, if nothing else, is bad manners.

    nibbler wrote:


    …know your company, know your environment.

    As far as “commandments” go, I think it’s disadvantagous to group things into “commandments” and “not commandments”. The best precepts to live by are good in and of themselves; it doesn’t matter whether or not God declared them, or the prophets, or even if there’s a life after this one. And I believe refraining from that sort of language is a very good precept to live by.

    #318768
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Several years ago I was flying to London from the US on business. This was before they had individual movie screens, so the movies were edited down to a PG level. The movie playing was “Four Weddings and a Funeral”, which takes place in the UK. I had already seen the edited movie on a domestic flight, but watched it anyway as there was nothing else to do on the long flight (flight was LAX to LHR). The version shown was edited different that the US version. The word “bugger” was edited out of the UK version, but not the US version. I’ll leave it for homework to google the UK definition of bugger.

    So, I could be at a ward party in the US, and stub my toe and say bugger in front of the bishop with not so much as a raised eyebrow. Not so much in the UK.

    I believe a swear word is fully a culture construct, and God really doesn’t care what we say. What he does care about is offending others, just like United Airlines cared about offending their British customers. This reminds me of a time I was bishop, and a deacon was passing the sacrament with a skull and cross bones belt buckle. I had a talk with him, and told him that God really doesn’t care what clothes he wears when he passes the sacrament, or what belt buckle he wears. But I told him we have several older widowed sisters in the ward that might take offense to the belt buckle, and that taking the sacrament was probably the spiritual highlight of their week, so it would help if he didn’t wear that belt buckle, not for God, but for the sisters in the ward. He stopped wearing the belt buckle, but then started to wear t-shirts with logos that could be seen through his white shirt, but that another story.

    #318769
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I think you’ll enjoy a little piece I wrote on swearing back in 2008: http://www.mormonmatters.org/2008/06/19/a-few-choice-words-on-swearing/

    It includes a history of swearing in English, why certain words are considered profanity, and also how people who want to avoid it have created their own fake swear words.

    Personally, I think the argument that profanity is lazy is a lazy argument. Sometimes, only a good swear word will do. I draw the line at using words in anger toward other people, though. About them, I’m a bit more flexible.

    #318770
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Wow, I can’t believe I forgot about “Oh my heck.” I didn’t realize that was a thing until my mission (when I got dumped in with a bunch of Utah natives) and I thought it sounded dumb from the very beginning.

    If the goal of not swearing is to be civilized and sound educated, using fake swears doesn’t actually solve the problem. If it’s a matter of respect, I can get behind that.

    It reminds me of a funny story: In my last BYU ward, at one point, one of the BR members called out the EQ for texting the phrase “sick AF” because the F stands in for a four-letter word. The irony in it was that he went on a few sentences later to say (I can’t remember the exact context) something was “pretty frickin’ awesome.” Once I realized the hypocrisy here, I was rather amused and almost decided to call him out on it in private.

    #318771
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’ve never really gotten the swearing thing other than the Lord’s name in vain. I think it’s like some other things – a puritan holdover. And the fake swear thing doesn’t make sense to me either – I see no difference in Oh my God and Oh my gosh, the intent is the same (but that’s just my take on it).

    I don’t swear much, but that’s just how I am. Even in the army I was not much of a swearer.

    And it is interesting what a swear word might be in one place as opposed to another – Sheldon’s bugger, for example (and having served a mission in New Zealand, I know what it means and I also know what stuffed means there). Bloody is often edited out of the Queen’s English because it refers to the blood of Christ. Americans seem to think it’s common and acceptable in the Empire.

    #318772
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I had always found it interesting that the servant of Laban used swearing to good effect when he “Swore”/promised loyalty to Nephi and company.

    dande48 wrote:


    As far as “commandments” go, I think it’s disadvantagous to group things into “commandments” and “not commandments”. The best precepts to live by are good in and of themselves; it doesn’t matter whether or not God declared them, or the prophets, or even if there’s a life after this one. And I believe refraining from that sort of language is a very good precept to live by.

    I had a friend in HS that would smoke basil, oregano, and assorted kitchen herbs because they were not prohibited in the WoW. To the positive, at least the kitchen herbs did not seem to be addictive and he soon grew out of it. He was only focused on avoiding sin or the punishment thereof. We should use reason and thoughtfulness in our words and actions.

    #318773
    Anonymous
    Guest

    nibbler wrote:

    Some are of the opinion that “taking the lord’s name in vain” isn’t the same thing as saying “Jesus Christ,” “OMG,” “GD,” etc., they might say that this interpretation would similarly be taking a verse out of context.

    I agree with nibbler on the thought that our interpretation of it is not likely the same as an old testament 10-commandment violation that we sometimes hear at church.

    Is it on par with adultery and killing and lying?

    I don’t think so.

    I think God is a big boy. Sticks and stones don’t matter much to him. I can’t imagine an all-powerful god of the universe cares that much about a few words…he’s heard it all…and he knows at times when we are in pain. He understands. It’s just language.

    He wants to know where our heart is and how we conduct ourselves with respect and reverence when called for…and let’s it slide when it is petty.

    We make too much out of it in church. Remember J.Golden Kimball and what he was famous for? That kind of reveals what is so taboo to our culture when you think he was “edgy.” Haha. Ya…that’s edgy…my a$$. I like mormons that relax a little and laugh with a few swear words for some down to earth talk.

    I’ve worked in business environments where it was f-bombs all over the place, and I always thought it was unnecessary…but whatever…we’re all adults…bottom line is we need to get things done. I think church should relax a bit about it. It’s not that big of a deal.

    I can teach my kids about swearing because they will hear it all at school and should know how to process it and conduct themselves with dignity and how to respect others, especially women and adults.

    But…when I take them out to the golf course…they hear a different side of dad after a shanked drive 😯 …once the initial shock is over…they laugh about it. It kind of becomes a family story. It isn’t a big deal. Because they know me more than just as a bad golfer who throws clubs and swears at times 😳

    I don’t think God thinks it is a big deal either. He has way worse stuff to keep track of with me and my problems than a few salty words (which I rarely use…but…it happens).

    #318774
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Heber13 wrote:


    We make too much out of it in church. Remember J.Golden Kimball and what he was famous for? That kind of reveals what is so taboo to our culture when you think he was “edgy.” Haha. Ya…that’s edgy…my a$$. I like mormons that relax a little and laugh with a few swear words for some down to earth talk.

    But isn’t that why people loved him? I don’t think I would have ever heard of him if not for the legend surrounding him, due in some part to his edginess.

    We like a guy that can shoot strait. Be real. Tear down their own façade of perfection.

    #318775
    Anonymous
    Guest

    “Vain” means “conceited” (“He is vain.”) and “of no consequence; without effect” (“He did it in vain.”).

    Taking the Lord’s name in vain originally meant using it without authority, in a way that would not be honored and, therefore, have no eternal consequence or effect.

    #318776
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I really like the alternative perspective on “Taking the name of the Lord in vain.” That never really occurred to me before. I’ve thought about it more and I think I actually prefer that interpretation over the traditional one.

    I was thinking the other day that perhaps it’s trying to refer to priestcraft. I’m not talking paid ministry, as I’ve come to realize that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. No. True priestcraft is much more heinous than that. Actual priestcraft is more like what you see in the Catholic Church shortly before the 95 theses. It’s when a person claims God’s authority in order to take advantage of people for his/her own gain. It’s when someone claims to have saving power which is put behind a paywall. It’s when a financial clerk pockets some of the tithing money. It’s when a bishop holds a TR for ransom and makes its holder publicly apologize in SM to get it back (I have heard of something like this). There are a lot of ways to commit priestcraft and it’s something that can be done with or without legitimate authority.

    I still think it’s disrespectful to God to say “Oh my God,” but that’s nowhere near the level of priestcraft in terms of how bad it is. Much like other forms of profanity, I see it as “bad” but not necessarily “sin.”

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