I have to get this out!!

Having kids of marriage age has also made me think quite a bit. I think you have some wise words here. I will probably go way too negative if I launch into more detailed explanation on parts of what you bring up (i.e. prospect for women vs men on the marriage front in the LDS culture, etc).

I have read one word of caution about “making sure my kids don’t make any of the same marriage mistakes that I did” is that each person and each marriage are different. You may harp on one issue that is THE issue in your marriage, but is not an issue at all in your kids marriage.

Numbered to reference the original points without relying heavily on quoting:

1) I believe it was HWH that said:

When two people can live the principles of the gospel, marriage can be sweet and it can be happy.

I never noticed the can-can in that quote before. When two people “can” live the gospel, meaning it’s possible for people not to and there’s no promise. I’d argue that even if they can there’s no guarantee. Marriage “can” be sweet and happy, meaning it’s possible for people to not have a sweet marriage, possibly meaning that even if people are living the gospel it’s possible for the marriage to still not be sweet and happy.

That’s the interpretation I arrive at only after applying heavy doses of parsing the language. I think other people arrive at a different conclusion.

I don’t know whether BY said anything similar. I wouldn’t take his advice on that subject seriously anyway, it just wouldn’t apply. When two people can live the principles of the gospel, marriage can be sweet and it can be happy. Take on an additional wife or maybe even an additional 30 wives should you feel like you’re still missing something. Yeah, doesn’t work.

I agree than interfaith marriages can limit choices but I’m not sure whether it limits or increases opportunities to find people. I’m an extreme introvert with tendencies toward social anxiety so the church provided a social construct for me to meet people. If not for the church I may still be single. I agree with what you’re saying though. I’m a person that operates on a social extreme.

For someone who wants a good temple marriage, I suggest moving to areas where there is a lot of choice, or getting to know a lot of people through whatever appropriate means are available in our highly connected world. Expansive choice, I think is important. I also think there are many good resources out there about how to choose a marriage partner that fill the blanks our church materials (almost non-existent to young single adults) about self-knowledge and how to choose a good partner. People who lack life experience and self-knowledge, would do well to tap into these resources.

I know many people that have done just that. The MorCor is an obvious choice. There’s also a large singles community in the DC area. Outside of the USA… I don’t know where you’d go.

To me, the beauty of the gospel is that it is not limited to this life and what we see and understand now. So, while there are guidelines with suggestions for ideal situations…personal circumstances will necessitate adaptation, and that is ok because the Atonement and temple work help take care of things in the next life.

So…while we may feel pressure to avoid marriage outside the temple, outside the faith…or to not end temple marriages, the doctrines don’t make a problem for allowing you to choose your path.

There are very very high costs for divorce. And there may be risks of marrying with people who are different (different culture backgrounds or religious back grounds).

But…because the gospel is not limited to “you must marry in the temple” or “you must marry someone of our faith”…but instead the suggestions (albeit strong suggestions and peer pressure) that are given…then it leaves room for individual adaptation to individual circumstances.

And…the rest gets worked out in the eternities.

At the end of the day…it is our life to live and seek our happiness. I believe there are many paths for that. We just choose our path, and work towards our goals.

I don’t see many downsides of eternal marriage if I have faith that a loving God will not force me to be stuck to someone who abuses me in any form. If any of my children were in a miserable marriage…I would advise them to do all they can to do their part to make it the best they can without giving up…until they’ve done all they can and need to give up on that marriage in order to find another path to reach their goal and keep working on it best they can. I would love them and support them for making those changes. I would not advise them to “stick it out…just because you have to.”

I am sure Heavenly Father is even more loving and understanding about it…and knows what is right for us. So…he makes a way for it to get taken care of in the eternities and I can let go of anxiety about it in this life. I am just left with choices, and live with those choices.

For me…that includes divorce to the woman I’m sealed to in the temple, and married to a woman I love civilly outside the temple. I’ve never been happier. My children are blessed for it. I see God’s hand in it. Our eternal family is progressing. My sister is married to an amazing and wonderful man, who happens to be raised muslim. They have beautiful children and their eternal family is progressing too.

To me…eternal families are about Love, not so limited by religion and ordinances. Those details can be worked out. But Love is what it is all about. Fact is…some relationships don’t foster that. The Lord didn’t tell Nephi to just “stick it out” with Laman and Lemuel because they are an eternal family from a prophet father. At some point…nephi had to take his family and get away from his brothers so he could be happy and live righteously.

That happens. And then we move on. And the temple and the gospel and the ordinances thereof can make a way for all who want those blessings, and all who have love of God and their family as their goals.

Sadly, the area I grew up in discouraged divorce. Bishops were instructed NEVER to recommend divorce. There is a stigma to it.

That can lead to problems with staying in marriages that aren’t suitable.

Me too, SD. I was told some very awful things, and warned about my salvation from bishops behind closed doors. They absolutely discouraged me and flat out told me it should NEVER be an option.

I would say it bordered on an abusive relationship all its own. It was the church leaders that have keys, and therefore authority, to tell me they are speaking for God in telling me what me and my family needed to hear. And divorce was not the way to go.

Eventually…I was at the point where I simply realized…it’s my life, despite what others think. They simply haven’t walked in my shoes to know what I’ve done to try to avoid it. After all I did…divorce was an option, even if no one would ever validate that for me…it had to be something I knew I needed, and my kids needed. Perhaps there is a blessing in that…the because the church told me I must not accept it…I had to make sure I did everything possible to avoid it…and that I was ready to live with my choice without regret the rest of my life and in front of my maker explain myself. I had to be sure…and so…I exhausted all options.

At some point…you realize the rest of the ward, or stake, or church are not going to be the authority I live my life by. I go straight to God.

Who knows…maybe divorce is “NEVER an option” is the best advice bishops can give others…and that helps others who stay together and later are grateful they never gave up.

My point is…the church may never approve. AND …that’s ok. That’s the way it goes. You find you can know for yourself what is right for the family…and the things the bishops told me behind closed doors were simply wrong. They were the opinions of people who from their perspective were trying to help me. But…they were wrong because they don’t have all the facts.

For me, the problem isn’t the teaching of eternal marriage. Because the gospel allows me to have an eternal family one way or another. That relieves pressure from having to try to force my family into a cookie cutter situation. Eternal families will work with divorce or without divorce…but how you go through your life with divorce or without divorce. I honestly don’t know why the church doesn’t teach that openly…but…I’m not waiting for them to teach it. Some truth in life is learned outside of church lessons or GC talks. That is also a good lesson to learn.

God’s plan is greater than the church or narrow views of it’s teachings. It provides a way for all. We just have to figure it out for ourselves. “Liken the scriptures UNTO US”.

Even me and my divorced sorry self. I’m a broken man now. My original eternal family is forever broken. I have faith God can help even me. And also…everyone is broken in some way, even those who choose to stay in bad marriages. God can help them too. There is no “one way” to let God help our broken-ness.

I have a blended family that is even greater than my original family. I see it as a plus, and could even say God knew it was needed. Or…I could just accept that God had nothing to do with it, because it works out either way. I could have stayed in my marriage without divorce. He would have been fine and asked me how I did to make the most of it. Or I can someday show him how I did with my divorced situation. I believe he’ll not care one way or another, but judge me on the person I became, and the choices I made…which are not all defined by one choice (divorce vs not divorce).

I now deal with the culture of “divorce is bad” regularly at church, and still hear it from my current bishop who is happily married to a great woman and have a great family that I’m sure have their own trials…but he isn’t dealing with what I dealt with.

Shrug. It’s part of my path. But…well worth the price for my happy family working towards our eternal family.

I am compassionate towards others who go through divorce in our ward…and see that many stop coming to church and I understand why. It isn’t easy to keep hearing family messages and feel like something is wrong with you when everyone else has eternal families. It isn’t easy to hear “never get divorced” and keep going to church knowing that’s what others think is right.

My kids just know that at any given moment, if the church calls on me to give a talk in sacrament meeting about the “joys of divorce”…I have a talk prepared and ready to go. I haven’t yet been asked to give it. But I’m ready. Divorce has been a great blessing to my spirituality, and my eternal family. The church teachings provide a way for me to view it that way.

Try to convince me otherwise.

Sorry…I’ll shut up now…this is your thread…I can hear your point of view and know the church messages you are hearing are what we hear at church a lot, and I get that, and am not disagreeing with you that it is troublesome.

Just a hot topic for me…so…hard for me to not share my view that eternal marriage as a teaching is just fine the way it is. It’s all about how we deal with it, and how we deal with others that sometimes view it narrowly and sometimes uncaringly. But that is part of church…dealing with others who don’t understand the difference between church and gospel principles.

Happy to PM anyone if you want to talk further about it.

The floor is yours, SD. I’ve said too much.

Interesting. By policy, bishops aren’t allowed to advocate for or against divorce.

What do you mean by this exactly?

I hear leaders advocating against divorce quite regularly. Although I try to be cognizant to my sensitivity on the matter, and try to not hear it when they are not saying it.

Would you say this talk is advocating for marriage or divorce, one way or the other?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/in-praise-of-those-who-save?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/in-praise-of-those-who-save?lang=eng

I don’t see many downsides of eternal marriage if I have faith that a loving God will not force me to be stuck to someone who abuses me in any form. If any of my children were in a miserable marriage…I would advise them to do all they can to do their part to make it the best they can without giving up…until they’ve done all they can and need to give up on that marriage in order to find another path to reach their goal and keep working on it best they can. I would love them and support them for making those changes. I would not advise them to “stick it out…just because you have to.”

The downside I see is missing the opportunity to fulfil our mandate in this life — happiness. Sure, it seems unlikely that God will make you stick with someone you do not love for eternity. But what about your happiness now, in this life? A good marriage increases happiness over being single your whole life.

Sticking out a crappy marriage your whole life can make you miserable. And the stats show that divorce from a terrible marriage boosts happiness. And that must be with all the inconveniences like alimony, restrictions on where you can live and work due to child custody issues etcetera.

You said some really good things. For one, there was a point where you had to say “screw culture” and do what was best for yourself, and it worked out really well for you.

I think that is the best advice we can give for people who are trying to StayLDS in the face of severe variances between their own worldview and some of the objectionable things we hear about at church.

It’s nice that policy is supposedly neutral on divorce or stay-married advice from Bishops. That was not the policy when I was marrying and young married age I heard over and over again that Bishops were told “never to council anyone to split up”. Not really a neutral position.

I have to confess, I don’t see Bishops of being much use to members for counseling anyway. They are simply men with opinions. And the potential to shoot off some pretty big guns if you are in serious violation of covenants. As you said, your Bishop would not advocate divorce — from the armchair of a happy marriage, it is hard to do so. Had he lived what you lived through, would he have been so against it??? I seriously question that.

I’m not anti-Temple marriage. AS I said, it works for many people, and can bring a lot of comfort to people in good marriages when one spouse dies. But one needs to look at their life with judgment, and if a temple marriage isn’t working, not be forced by cultural norms to stay in it when it’s best to leave.

Frankly, does it really matter in the long haul? If you stick out a temple marriage, and then die not wanting to be with the person for eternity, the consensus seems to be that God won’t expect you to stay with the person. As a God, I want a happy Kingdom, and forcing people to stay in miserable marriages for eternity after they have given it their best shot is not a recipe for a happy kingdom.

I am not even convinced there won’t be chances to have an eternal companion after this life is over. The scriptures are vague..yes, it says people are not married or given in marriage in heaven — but what is heaven? Celestial Kingdom? The heaven that accompanies spirit prison as we await resurrection? Is it possible we are not married there, but then can find eternal soul mates during the millenial period when the very best are resurrected, including the single people?

The eternal marriage concept creates a lot of situations where we have to simply “let God work it out. This tells me the rules are murky.

The simplistic way we teach the concept at church isn’t adequate for me anymore.

I like Ray’s catch all — [X] is wonderful, except when it isn’t. Temple marriage is wonderful, except when it isn’t.

It’s nice that policy is supposedly neutral on divorce or stay-married advice from Bishops. That was not the policy when I was marrying and young married age I heard over and over again that Bishops were told “never to council anyone to split up”. Not really a neutral position.

It doesn’t sound like the policy has changed, at least to me.

No priesthood officer is to counsel a person whom to marry. Nor should he counsel a person to divorce his or her spouse. Those decisions must originate and remain with the individual.

When a marriage ends in divorce, or if a husband and wife separate, they should always receive counseling from Church leaders. One or both may also need Church discipline if they have committed serious transgressions in connection with the divorce or separation.

The policy is to not counsel people to divorce, which is different than saying something like “Nor should he counsel a person on whether or not to divorce his or her spouse.” It still sounds one directional, a person could read that policy and come away with the idea that they can’t counsel people to divorce but should counsel a couple to stay together. It’s still not a clear policy.