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I was having some thoughts about this LDS paradox and wanted to get your commentary on it. There’s many places in LDS scripture and talks about how we’re promised a testimony. “Ask and ye shall receive” and all that.
Anyway I’ve been thinking about why I haven’t received anything, after putting forward a reasonable amount of effort. Maybe God is just waiting for the right moment?
I don’t know if God exists or not, but if he does, it seems like the LDS adage is false. It just doesn’t fit in the LDS view of things. God is more like a candy machine. Insert a quarter, get a jolly rancher. Insert prayer/scripture study/church, get a testimony. It’s as if God’s will is not part of the equation, at least when we teach about it.
This brings up all sorts of questions.
If someone hasn’t received a testimony, how long do you tell them to keep trying? They can’t wait forever. Say you wanted to go fishing, and everyone tells you there’s a lake that has high-quality fish, although this is not documented anywhere other than word-of-mouth. You set bait and wait. And wait, and wait, and wait. How long do you wait until you think you’ve been duped? Doesn’t it depend on how much stock you put in other people’s words? Many other people claim to have testimonies of Islam, or Judaism, etc. How is that a test of faith, by trusting the right people?
How long does God expect me to wait? What does he expect me to do in the meantime? Twiddle my thumbs, since it’s apparent that nothing I do changes his will?
Lastly, how does the church teach that a testimony isn’t something you can just “will” into existence? Seems like the Church is stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they teach that God is like a candy machine (which I think they do right now), they’d be lying, and also it would invalidate everyone (like me) who should’ve gotten a testimony but didn’t. But… if they taught that everything depends on God’s will…. how would that mull over with investigators? “We believe it’s true, but you may never know…”? What is a person supposed to do when they don’t get their promised testimony? They can’t wait forever because if it’s false, at some point they have to start living their lives. Thus the LDS church loses its allure.
Both options seem really problematic. Right now, I just plan to live without God. If he reaches out, then great, but he hasn’t given me a reason to stick around.
These are all really good questions, Syme. I like reading your thoughts and learn from your posts…so thanks for sharing. I don’t know how to figure that stuff out either. God seems to be silent many times. I definitely agree that the model of the candy machine is false. It is not so predictable.
But I will share my testimony…that as I live the principles of the gospel…I feel they are true. Those confirmations come in many ways. But I certainly would not stay LDS if I didn’t have that testimony.
It is better for me to be mormon than to not be mormon. I have learned that through living and looking at the outcomes of living it.
Why God is silent? Well…that is part of what I wonder about as I live and observe what is going on around me. But clearly…I cannot wait to get answers before I make choices and live my life. I keep moving and make my choices. I just try to observe things as I go.
So…I don’t get my testimony from a dormant God. I get my testimony through life and the consequences of actions, even while God is dormant. Perhaps I assign the truth I learn to that dormant God, if it makes me feel better to do that. But my testimony comes from life, and the evidences I cannot deny.
I am happier staying in the church. Even if I am not sure God is there.
Syme, you raise some interesting questions. Many of them I’ve experienced in my life too. So, for me when the answers didn’t see to come when I wanted them to, I tried to find inspiration.
When left on my own the world becomes a very dark place.
Before I give you my answer, I want to know:
What brings you inspiration?
What expands your life or soul?
What brings you joy?
What brings you peace?
I rarely look for specific answers to specific questions. For me God doesn’t work that way.
Syme wrote:
I don’t know if God exists or not, but if he does, it seems like the LDS adage is false. It just doesn’t fit in the LDS view of things. God is more like a candy machine. Insert a quarter, get a jolly rancher. Insert prayer/scripture study/church, get a testimony. It’s as if God’s will is not part of the equation, at least when we teach about it.
This reminds me strongly of
something I wrote here recently about the formulas we’re taughtI think the Church attracts and retains people the same way as self-help programs and political parties: by selling certainty. (I can’t take credit for this idea – I got it from
this video featuring Brené BrownSuppose I teach the formula “if you roll a die correctly, then you’ll get a 6.” When people don’t roll a 6, I tell them they’ve done it incorrectly and that they have to try again. Some get a 6 immediately. Some take a long time. Some even learn techniques to almost always get 6.
What happens to the people who walk up with a
four-sided dieThe only testimonies about my formula we would hear would be from those who rolled a 6 and those who still hoped to roll a 6. They would self-select to testify, and that’s selection bias.
If I sent missionaries out, their message would be simple and certain: “Join us and you’ll roll a 6! That’s how it worked for me and everyone I know!”
Syme wrote:
Both options seem really problematic. Right now, I just plan to live without God. If he reaches out, then great, but he hasn’t given me a reason to stick around.
That’s really not a bad plan.
Here’s a question a good friend asked me lately: What do you believe in strongly enough to devote your life to? My answer is “love and truth.” What’s yours?
EDIT: Aww, ninja’d by Minyan Man on the introspective questions.
I’ve never thought of myself as a Ninja before. Reuben said it better than I did. Quote:…the candy machines/formulas aren’t reliable, and chucking them was overall a good thing for me.
Answers to prayer always came as a surprise. Answers come sometimes without a prayer being said. It’s a surprise. I like surprises.
Minyan Man wrote:
Answers to prayer always came as a surprise. Answers come sometimes without a prayer being said. It’s a surprise.
Sometimes…that is the lesson God wants us to learn. Let go of trying to control the universe…let go of the vending machine mentality. Let things happen as they will, and look for meaning in it…and the answers are there if we want them.
To me, that is what makes it meaningful. Not made up and useless…but meaningful by accepting things as they are.
Eckhart Tolle is a good author to explore these thoughts. Many times…when we let go of trying to force prayer into formulas…that is when we start learning the value of prayer.
Syme, Your post sure resonated with me. I am in my 50’s now and I felt like all of my life I was trying harder and harder to get that conformation, but it never seemed to come. I had the same thought – how long do I wait? I then thought of trying to elevate this above just my situation and make it more generic. Quote:So suppose that John was born into a family that was devout Jehovah’s Witnesses. He of course wasn’t absolutely perfect, but was absolutely a good kid growing up, a great teenager that tried hard to follow the teachings of his religion, and since his teens he has gone out most weekends knocking on doors and witnessing. He has devoted most of his time/effort and a sizable amount of money, sacrificed family time for the cause of the Witnesses. He never feels like he gets a witness himself and assume he is the issue and just keeps trying harder and harder. Eventually he is fatigued and starts to doubt. He has a friend that is Mormon and he starts to talk with him a bit. The Elders in his church hear about this and come down hard that he should not do that AT ALL and instead should just keep trying harder and promise that he will get his witness if he just keeps going. But John realizes his life is close to being over. Should he just “keep trying harder”?
I would assume if you propose the above to a member, they will say, “John should branch out beyond his current church.” But if that is the case for the person brought up as a Witness then the same should be said if the roles were switched. If John is born into a Mormon family, checks all the right boxes, but still after many decades can’t say he knows any of it is true, then John should branch out beyond Mormonism and not just “stay in the boat.”
This one also resonated with me. It is primarily why I have adopted a deist view of God – otherwise it doesn’t make sense to me (although I also appreciate Heber’s view). I have spent countless hours praying about things as well and to no avail. I don’t quote scripture often, especially scripture I’m not sure is scripture. But this one fits (and might be true). D&C 46:
Quote:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
I have become content in believing that I don’t have to know everything. I can believe that God exists and loves us (in a general sort of way) and that Jesus is the Christ. Perhaps that’s my “gift.”
Syme wrote:
Say you wanted to go fishing, and everyone tells you there’s a lake that has high-quality fish, although this is not documented anywhere other than word-of-mouth. You set bait and wait. And wait, and wait, and wait. How long do you wait until you think you’ve been duped?
I see communal spirituality a little differently. I would say it’s more like everyone tells you there is a place by the lake that is really beautiful; that if you go there at the right time of day, you will feel uplifted. When you go, if you expect and want to find it, you will, even if another person meant the place by the rock and someone else meant the place by the tree, but you found the place by where the stream enters the lake. You all found what you were hoping for. Spirituality is very subjective. It doesn’t mean it’s wrong or false, but we have a capacity to find meaning where ever we search for it, as long as we allow for the possibilities. I myself have not received answers to prayers since my faith crisis… yet I did, many times, before my faith crisis. Coincidence?DarkJedi wrote:I don’t quote scripture often, especially scripture I’m not sure is scripture. But this one fits (and might be true). D&C 46:
Quote:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
I have become content in believing that I don’t have to know everything. I can believe that God exists and loves us (in a general sort of way) and that Jesus is the Christ. Perhaps that’s my “gift.”
We’ve talked on this site before about how we may have the tendency to interpret those scriptures as it being an either-or thing.
Eitherwe know for ourselves through the holy ghost orwe can believe other people that know. There are at least two more groups. The people that know for themselves and can rely on the testimony of others… and the people that have some other gift of the spirit that’s not related to either of the gifts in these verses, the holy ghost doesn’t make it known unto them and they do not have the gift of relying on the testimony of others. I think it’s a part of church culture that everyone is in that group that has both gifts, we never talk about the people that have neither but I think there are a
lotof people in that group. Contrary to what is often presented at church, if you don’t have either gift it isn’t the end of the world. That just means you have some other gift of equal value. Hi, Syme – I’ve been thinking about your post, but what little I could say depends on understanding your situation better. Are you talking about a testimony of the LDS gospel’s truthfulness and the rightness of the LDS church (along with Restoration story, Book of Mormon, temples, exclusive priesthood authority, etc.). Or “just” a testimony of the very existence of a caring God, Christ as atoner, reality of life after death and things along those lines?
I agree with you about life needing living! Whatever is going on in the big picture, some things about the little picture are certain. Life is short and precious.
nibbler wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:I don’t quote scripture often, especially scripture I’m not sure is scripture. But this one fits (and might be true). D&C 46:
Quote:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
I have become content in believing that I don’t have to know everything. I can believe that God exists and loves us (in a general sort of way) and that Jesus is the Christ. Perhaps that’s my “gift.”
We’ve talked on this site before about how we may have the tendency to interpret those scriptures as it being an either-or thing.
Eitherwe know for ourselves through the holy ghost orwe can believe other people that know. There are at least two more groups. The people that know for themselves and can rely on the testimony of others… and the people that have some other gift of the spirit that’s not related to either of the gifts in these verses, the holy ghost doesn’t make it known unto them and they do not have the gift of relying on the testimony of others. I think it’s a part of church culture that everyone is in that group that has both gifts, we never talk about the people that have neither but I think there are a
lotof people in that group. Contrary to what is often presented at church, if you don’t have either gift it isn’t the end of the world. That just means you have some other gift of equal value.
Good point, Nibbler. Those are just two of a long list of possible gifts that is not meant to be exhaustive. It is possible to not have either of those gifts.
I don’t disbelieve others’ testimonies of Christ, but as I thought about it their testimonies are not why I believe in Christ. I believe because I choose to believe after reading and studying the gospels.
Reuben wrote:
Syme wrote:
I don’t know if God exists or not, but if he does, it seems like the LDS adage is false. It just doesn’t fit in the LDS view of things. God is more like a candy machine. Insert a quarter, get a jolly rancher. Insert prayer/scripture study/church, get a testimony. It’s as if God’s will is not part of the equation, at least when we teach about it.
This reminds me strongly of
something I wrote here recently about the formulas we’re taughtI think the Church attracts and retains people the same way as self-help programs and political parties: by selling certainty. (I can’t take credit for this idea – I got it from
this video featuring Brené BrownSuppose I teach the formula “if you roll a die correctly, then you’ll get a 6.” When people don’t roll a 6, I tell them they’ve done it incorrectly and that they have to try again. Some get a 6 immediately. Some take a long time. Some even learn techniques to almost always get 6.
What happens to the people who walk up with a
four-sided dieThe only testimonies about my formula we would hear would be from those who rolled a 6 and those who still hoped to roll a 6. They would self-select to testify, and that’s selection bias.
If I sent missionaries out, their message would be simple and certain: “Join us and you’ll roll a 6! That’s how it worked for me and everyone I know!”
Syme wrote:
Both options seem really problematic. Right now, I just plan to live without God. If he reaches out, then great, but he hasn’t given me a reason to stick around.
That’s really not a bad plan.
Here’s a question a good friend asked me lately: What do you believe in strongly enough to devote your life to? My answer is “love and truth.” What’s yours?
EDIT: Aww, ninja’d by Minyan Man on the introspective questions.
Selection bias… never thought of it like that.
And I’ve read your post on formulas before. That was one of the best posts on a message board that I have read.
To answer both yours and Minyan Man’s questions, things I care about:
* Truth
* Justice
* Freedom
* Self-Improvement
* Exploration
Out of these things, I could devote my life to self-improvement and truth. I like the idea of justice, but I am perfectly content to withdraw from society to search for the truth / improvement.
Syme wrote:
How long does God expect me to wait? What does he expect me to do in the meantime? Twiddle my thumbs, since it’s apparent that nothing I do changes his will?
Syme wrote:
To answer both yours and Minyan Man’s questions, things I care about:* Truth
* Justice
* Freedom
* Self-Improvement
* Exploration
Out of these things, I could devote my life to self-improvement and truth.
In a sense, you’ve already answered your own question. I think God expects us to devote our lives to those things we care about. The principle of faith is acting even though we may be uncertain. You aren’t getting the kind of testimony and answers from God that you hoped for, so you have to move forward based on what you have received already (however much or little that may be) and trust that things will work out in the end.
And it sounds like you’ve already worked that out:
Syme wrote:
Right now, I just plan to live without God. If he reaches out, then great, but he hasn’t given me a reason to stick around.
Try it out and see how it goes. As long as the fruit of that plan is good, you know it’s working for you. If it doesn’t work out, well, then you re-evaluate.This is essentially how anyone gets a testimony of anything: by experimenting with it and seeing how it works for you. Yes, it yields different answers to different people; the candy-machine doesn’t work. Different people need different things to get through life. There are many paths to the top of Mt Fuji.
ydeve wrote:
This is essentially how anyone gets a testimony of anything: by experimenting with it and seeing how it works for you. Yes, it yields different answers to different people; the candy-machine doesn’t work. Different people need different things to get through life. There are many paths to the top of Mt Fuji.
I think you hit on something here ydeve. I think it is a common perception among members that “I read the Book of Mormon cover to cover and prayed about it got an answer it’s true, so the same will happen to you.” I’m not sure that most people understand that the way God works with you, or perhaps what God wants you to learn, is not the same way God works with me or that I need to learn different things than you. Again, I’m not a believer in the omniscient God, but in the big scheme of things we are all here to learn, no two of us (out of the billions that will ever live) have exactly the same experiences. That’s all just part of how it is supposed to work.
The only thing I can say I think God wants all of us to learn is that we need to love one another. How that happens is bound to be different for all of us.
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