An Interesting Discussion with Our Stake Patriarch

2 Nephi 33:12: And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

Maybe it’s his interpretation of “after all we can do.”

One interpretation of that phrase implies grace, another interpretation of that phrase implies a conditional on receiving grace.

Many people will accept the Gospel eventually. Well, probably most, if not all people will accept it.

That sounds like something a loving father would do.

Do you think that the idea that almost all will be saved could be framed within the idea of nearly everyone will receive a degree of glory, even if not the top most tier of the celestial kingdom? And that’s assuming that you believe literally in the three degrees of glory concept of an afterlife, of which I tend to take more metaphorical than literal anyway.

Yes, I believe that many believe that going to any kingdom of glory constitutes being “saved”.

I personally have problems with the tiered heaven vs. grace. If I am made a receiver of the atonement then Christ’s sacrifice covers up and swallows up my own puny efforts. I am credited with His righteousness and am made a joint heir with Him. Do the denizens of the lower kingdoms not receive the atonement? or is the atonement something less than full and absolute mercy and grace? Is the Atonement reduced to some sort of payment plan like in Elder Packard’s parable of the Mediator?

“Then,” said the benefactor, “you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.”

The debt is still there but the terms are more favorable.

I believe the tiered heaven is an attempt to understand a works based reward model and not the traditional Christian faith=forgiveness model. I do not believe the two are directly compatible.

I don’t buy the Packer explanation. I think that’s the greatest misunderstanding about grace. God doesn’t want our pennies. The debt is fully paid, no matter how much we do – none of what we do counts because Christ paid the debt in full before we even incurred it. That is already done.

Isaiah 1 (NRSV)

11 What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. 12When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more; 13bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and calling of convocation— I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. 14Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. 15When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

16Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, 17learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow.

Moroni 10

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

DFU

On Easter Sunday we celebrate the most long-awaited and glorious event in the history of the world. It is the day that changed everything. On that day, my life changed. Your life changed. The destiny of all God’s children changed. On that blessed day, the Savior of mankind, who had taken upon Himself the chains of sin and death that held us captive, burst those chains and set us free….

Because we have all “sinned, and come short of the glory of God” and because “there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God,”11 every one of us is unworthy to return to God’s presence. Even if we were to serve God with our whole souls, it is not enough, for we would still be “unprofitable servants.” We cannot earn our way into heaven; the demands of justice stand as a barrier, which we are powerless to overcome on our own. But all is not lost. The grace of God is our great and everlasting hope….

Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God. Thinking that we can trade our good works for salvation is like buying a plane ticket and then supposing we own the airline. Or thinking that after paying rent for our home, we now hold title to the entire planet earth….

Today and forevermore God’s grace is available to all whose hearts are broken and whose spirits are contrite. Jesus Christ has cleared the way for us to ascend to heights incomprehensible to mortal minds.

I also have trouble with the tiered system and I think it is an invention of men perhaps to try and explain how our theology can teach that almost all people are saved yet there is some reward for the truest believers. Some other Christians believe only believers will be “saved” and go to heaven, while other believe that beyond believing there are certain other requirements such as baptism and good works. I think we got stuck in the middle trying to have our cake and eat it too. Truth is, I don’t know how it works and I don’t think any human does or ever has. I am left with hope His grace is sufficient.

Is a tiered system what you end up with when you preach a variant of universal salvation but still are rooted in the concept of preservation of justice?

Everyone is saved. That’s not fair. :think: Well there’s saved and then there’s saved.

I think that’s absolutely the root of it. I also think it’s partly because of a misunderstanding of what justice is. I don’t believe justice is punishment as much as it it fairness – but not necessarily a human view of fairness, rather a Godly view. Think the parable of the workers where all were paid the same no matter how many hours they worked.