How to be authentic but not cause a scene

I think I am in a fairly similar place as you Journey Girl. I have gotten to a place of real peace, but it has been years in the making (and I am not that old!). But there are still ups and downs and tricky situations. I like SD’s advice. I especially agree that it is wise not to tell anyone (at least in your church circle) of your disbelief. That was hard for me at first because I wanted to scream every week at church. But this forum really helped me come to see that being myself doesn’t require sharing my deepest (un)belief with everyone I meet.

Each move is calculated to preserve your cruising range (options) in the future.

This is SO important. Part of my belief now is that I leave room that I am totally wrong and it really is all true! So I am trying not to burn any bridges, even as I step back more and more.

I too have given up my temple recommend (by not renewing it) and have stopped wearing garments most of the time. But as part of my ‘not burning bridges’ theme, I still wear them to Mormony things. I see it as a sign of respect for those who believe and as a sign of commitment to my husband.

Along those same lines, I still hold a calling (actually a fairly ‘high’ one on a local level). This is how I see it: if I was part of any other club, I would feel the need to pitch in and put in my time. So I do a job at church and do it the way I am comfortable with. Others see me happy, smiling and helping and they don’t assume that my soul needs more saving. Win, win.

I don’t live in Utah and where I am there are very few Mormons, but several years ago all my friends were Mormon. It made it very hard during my faith transition to feel like everything in my life was Mormon. So I have worked very hard to make other friends and associations and that has helped a lot as I have stepped back from church. But it has also shown me that I really like Mormons! They are my people. So while plenty of things drive me crazy, I can cope with most of it now.

One last thing. It has really helped to not attend church every week. I usually make it a couple of times a month. And I always have a great excuse–out of town or sick kid or something (and I don’t lie!). But I use every opportunity possible to skip a week and that makes things easier.

So I guess, to sum it up: I am letting Mormonism into my life where and when it fits. I make it an active choice and don’t feel guilty. But I also don’t feel the need (anymore) to educate others on how crazy Mormonism is

One last thing. It has really helped to not attend church every week. I usually make it a couple of times a month. And I always have a great excuse–out of town or sick kid or something (and I don’t lie!). But I use every opportunity possible to skip a week and that makes things easier.

So I guess, to sum it up: I am letting Mormonism into my life where and when it fits. I make it an active choice and don’t feel guilty. But I also don’t feel the need (anymore) to educate others on how crazy Mormonism is

Great advice up here. I too don’t go all the time, but usually 3-5 times a month. Tomorrow I have something that conflicts with church, and I’ve been jacked up all day looking forward to it. My life will be very full when I get home from it, as I’m helping people express their passions, have new experiences. As a result, I feel like I’m being very kind and nurturing in what I’m doing. I love the people I will be with — all non-members, and I can’t wait.

Why trade that for a church experience that is repetitive and hasn’t changed in 35 years?

Happiness comes first.

I’m also an active agnostic, with a TBM spouse, and a child on the way. It’s a tough spot to be in, but I have faith you can do it!

First, I would explicitly talk to the Bishop and RS president, and explain the situation. I wouldn’t go into much detail, just them them you respect them and their beliefs, and are not antagonistic, but you don’t believe in it, and would like to be exempt from having a calling and VT assignments. The leaders will be as keen as you not to make it into a public display, and will likely comply with your request.

I have only been proactive once in my life with talking to leaders, and it was only theBishop. And that was a couple months ago when our Bishop kept coming at me over and over and over and over and over again with callings. Eventually he assigned me 20 HT families and I’d had enough — all without my buy in and agreement.

It was very risky — but my approach was to affirm testimony while disaffirming my commitment to high pressure work in the church at this time. I framed it as exhaustion, and shared some really extreme and damaging experiences I’d had at church — but affirmed that I had kept trudging along in spite of these experiences, working on “testimony alone”. This stopped the requests for activity etceera.

But I consider myself among the lucky. If you go in there and tell them where you stand on any doctrinal or doubt issues, it’s over. So I would not be proactive in meeting with the leaders. Just put boundaries on what you will and will not do. Only be proactive in pre-empting what they ask you to do if it they come at you with so many callings and requests for work that you can’t stand it any more. The request for a calling here and there doesn’t qualify in my view. For example, I said “no” five times before it got too much with the 20 HT families…

Also, once, I was asked to speak to the Bishop and he really pressed me to share why I didn’t have a TR or wasn’t more committed to the church. This was with a different Bishop many years ago. I eventually told him after 3 annual visits. And then a member of the SP called me out about the things that bothered me over the pulpit in Stake Conference. He mentioned specifically the things that were bothering me in such close proximity it HAD to have been shared with him by our Bishop. And the SP member looked right at me when he said it. So, share something with the BP, and it’ll go straight to the Stake President and others in the priesthood line. There is no loyalty to you personally — the loyalty is to the chain of command. So consider that when considering being forthright about why you have concerns about the church.

To those of you who suggest not sharing where you are personally with leaders or other members, may I ask a question? What value and meaning do you feel in belonging to a community where you feel if you were to publicly share your personal perspectives you would be rejected or dismissed? This is where I am and where I am really struggling right now. I too am basically agnostic with TBM spouse and attend to support her. Support of her is also why I haven’t specifically asked to be released but I have come close. I did tell my leaders and they basically know where I’m at and that was important for me to have them know.

So now I basically look at the church as a club I belong to. But what is hard for me is the thought that if I were to stand up at the pulpit and express honestly and sincerely where I am at and how I got there, that ultimately I would be rejected. So the struggle is, other than support for my spouse, why continue to associate with a community that would reject the authentic self?

And right now it is a real struggle and I am having a very hard time coming up with reasons for someone like myself who falls more on the side of disbelief to continue. I could continue attending for years, but will that bring me satisfaction and joy? Am I missing out on being part of a different community that would accept me for me? And at the very least, I am so glad I found this online community that fills that need.

SD said much of what I would have said. I frame it under the following concepts:

1) Pick your battles. What do I want more than to be validated (especially knowing that some people/situations may never validate me)? I personally do not pay tithing. Writing large checks to the church would be my breaking point. Because I know that I am relatively inflexible on this issue I may need to be more flexible in other areas.

2) Consider the audience. I am comfortable presenting myself somewhat differently in different settings.

3) We are all works in progress. Be careful of declarations that may seem to permanently define you in the minds of others (and limit your future options). For example, I say that I have hope and faith in concepts that I find so beautiful that I long for them to be true…even if I cannot say “I know.” I also leave room for a return to paying tithing in the future.

I wanted to be permitted to baptize my children (I was) and I still want the ordain my son when the time comes. This has led me to try to act in deliberate ways that are more likely to achieve the desired result.

What value and meaning do you feel in belonging to a community where you feel if you were to publicly share your personal perspectives you would be rejected or dismissed?

There is a big heritage aspect. I want to be included in my son’s priesthood line of authority. I wanted to be the one to baptize my kids because my dad did it for me and I had always imagined myself doing that for my own children.

There is also the extended family aspect. We live far enough away from family that they are not really involved in the daily minutia but if we missed a major milestone ordinance it would set off red flags. We want our children to be accepted and treated the same as the other cousins and grandchildren. We also do not want the drama and judgment that would come our way as parents.

DW is a believer. She does not have her eyes closed to a number of the problems that the church has currently or has had in the past. She would not begrudge people for throwing up their hands and walking away if that is what they feel they need to do. Her path is to stick with what she knows, what she feels in a subconscious level. Part of why I do what I do is out of love, respect, and support for her.

While I wait for my kids to grow up and get their ordinances, we take advantage of the framework, community, and the programs offered. We contribute where and how we are able to make the programs better.

Finally, I am still a spiritual person and I am still hungry for meaning. There are some aspects and teachings of Mormonism that are wonderful to me. I feel free to explore the universe of ideas but my framework will always have a Mormon bent or Mormon flavor. I may be “out of step” intellectually but the LDS are still my tribe and my people. No matter our differences, there is always more that binds us in common.

To those of you who suggest not sharing where you are personally with leaders or other members, may I ask a question? What value and meaning do you feel in belonging to a community where you feel if you were to publicly share your personal perspectives you would be rejected or dismissed?

I’m actually struggling with how to word this, but the straightest way is to ask you the same question. If you disagree with or doubt the organization so much, what value do you find in attending? Let’s do a little analogy.

Let’s say you belong the Spanky and Alfalfa’s He-Man-Woman-Hater’s Club (HMWHC). You joined as soon as you learned about the club, you took the oath, and attended all the meetings and activities. You couldn’t get enough of it, you loved the camaraderie and everything about the club’s beliefs and ideals. As time went on though you became aware of some things that you don’t fully agree with any more. You figure out that not all women are trouble and there are some you’d really like to get closer with. But any relationship with a woman is grounds for your immediate dismissal from the club meaning you won’t be able to attend the tailgate parties, annual pig roast, or Ultimate Frisbee Tournament. Even though you don’t believe it all anymore, it’s still your tribe, they’re still your friends, and there’s nothing better on earth than that pig – so you decide to stick around, keep the women thing to yourself, and join in the activities. Is it your place now to convert others to your way of thinking? (Mother Nature will do that eventually anyway, but we’re just pretending here.) Is it your place to stand up in the next meeting and say “Girls ain’t so bad, try ’em you might like ’em!”? Of course not, it’s their club, their rules, and you agreed to them. If you’re going to stay you need to play by the rules. Does that mean you can’t say something like “Gee guys, Spanky’s Mom sure does make great brownies for desert at the pig roast – that woman sure ain’t so bad!”? Of course you could say that – there might be a couple guys that look at your crossways, but most will likely agree. See where I’m going with this?

We might not agree with everything that happens at church or everything that the church (or usually more accurately people in the church) teaches, but it’s their club, their rules. It is no more our place to try to change those rules than it is to try to change the rules of the HMWHC or the Catholic or Baptist church down the street. That’s not how it works. We can all have our opinions, but we are not free in many circumstances to share those opinions. Try sharing what a horrible boss you have with his boss or tell the CEO that your company business plan is all wrong and see how far that gets you.

This is where I am and where I am really struggling right now. I too am basically agnostic with TBM spouse and attend to support her. Support of her is also why I haven’t specifically asked to be released but I have come close. I did tell my leaders and they basically know where I’m at and that was important for me to have them know.

So now I basically look at the church as a club I belong to. But what is hard for me is the thought that if I were to stand up at the pulpit and express honestly and sincerely where I am at and how I got there, that ultimately I would be rejected. So the struggle is, other than support for my spouse, why continue to associate with a community that would reject the authentic self?

Good question. Why? If you are a member of the club, you agree to the club’s rules. If you’re just a visitor to the club, you still play by the club’s rules. If you don’t want to play by the rules, don’t go to the club. Again, it’s their club, their rules.

And right now it is a real struggle and I am having a very hard time coming up with reasons for someone like myself who falls more on the side of disbelief to continue. I could continue attending for years, but will that bring me satisfaction and joy? Am I missing out on being part of a different community that would accept me for me? And at the very least, I am so glad I found this online community that fills that need.

Again, good question. You said you are going to support your wife. If that’s the goal and purpose, you need to make that your goal and purpose. Your purpose then is not to look for satisfaction and joy except in the satisfaction and joy you get from supporting your wife because you love her. You might be missing out on different kinds of joy or spiritual fulfillment – the only way to know is to go to a different club and find out.

All that said, I sometimes sort of see myself as an observer at church. Sometimes I find great humor in some of the stuff that goes on, sometimes it makes me angry. Sometimes I pay attention and find peace, joy or satisfaction, and sometimes I find peace, joy and satisfaction by not paying attention and seeking it elsewhere (I am thankful for my tablet/phone). I can’t stand at the pulpit and express all my opinions, but you might be surprised what you can get away with using scripture and GA quotes (without stretching them either). I’ve said I support civil gay marriage in class, making sure to add that I also believe the church has every right not to perform or recognize them (their club, their rules – but their rules don’t apply to other clubs). I can freely talk about grace, about focusing on Christ, about my distaste for doing family history, and myriad other things – all without wearing a sign that says “You’re all full of crap and I don’t believe most of what you say” (which may well be what I’m thinking). In addition to knowing when to hold ’em and fold ’em, you also have to know when (and how) to bluff and when to call. There is a great deal to be said for nuance and speaking Sheepese as a llama. There’s also much to be said for focusing on and talking about what you do believe.

I don’t see your real issue here as being authenticity, I see it as wanting to leave the club but not daring to (for good reason).

I am a convert and I did choose to join the club. One ward I lived in actually did have an annual pig roast. I also attended more than one hangi on my mission, but I digress.

Even though I chose to join the club, I probably would not choose to join now knowing what I now know. On the other hand, there are lots of things I would do differently if I knew then what I know now. I recognize the experience is different for those who were raised in the church, and it does bug me to some extent that joining the club happens when you’re children, when you really don’t know what the heck you’re getting into, and when you feel (or are led to believe) it’s just part of what you do. In truth the vast majority of converts don’t know what they’re getting into either – that’s partly why retention is such a problem IMO. Faith crisis and faith transition come to both BIC types and convert types.