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  • #211499
    Anonymous
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    An article in Deseret News today indicates Elder Holland has withdrawn the story about the young man rescued by his unknown brother he told in the new mission president’s training. I did not read the initial story as published, but it was repeated to me by my wife. I have also heard it repeated already in SM. Doubter that I am, I looked at it very skeptically from the git-go. Then again, I tend to doubt most faith promoting rumors and this turned out to be exactly that. I do give Holland credit for coming clean, although I think he should have checked it out better before as well. Here’s a link today’s article:

    Holland

    I generally don’t share stories in my talks or testimonies, except on rare occasions first hand stories. This brings into question: Should we share stories that we’re not sure of their truth or accuracy? Do faith promoting rumors do more harm than good?

    #321817
    Anonymous
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    DarkJedi wrote:


    Should we share stories that we’re not sure of their truth or accuracy?

    [attachment=0]joker.jpg[/attachment]

    But in all seriousness, I think it largely depends on how the story is presented and the purpose for sharing the story.

    There are stories and there are stories. In the case of a parable the story is sort of like a fable, whether the story is literal or figurative takes a backseat to the lesson that the story is trying to teach.

    In this case I think the focus of the story is, “isn’t it neat that god placed these two people on a similar path despite the years and the distance between them.” There’s a repentance story in there too but the story’s focus appears to be the wow factor of the unlikely reunion. The story would still work if told in a parable format, except the wow factor would fall flat on its face. A hypothetical unlikely reunion… wow… I guess. There’s also an accurate story of someone repenting that can still be told but where’s the wow factor to grab people’s attention?

    I don’t fault Elder Holland though. People told him the story, no reason not to believe it, he shared it, he later found out it wasn’t factual, he owned up to it… and before the story had a chance to work its way into the Gospel Doctrine manual this time!

    It makes me wonder though. Do members in 2017 need literal stories? Would parables be sufficient? That goes for the story teller and the audience. Maybe the story teller feels like they need to stick to those real-life events that have a wow factor to get people to listen?

    #321819
    Anonymous
    Guest

    What’s the TL;DR version of this? (Feeling lazy). I haven’t heard anything about it.

    #321820
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I do like that Elder Holland did fess up. I just wish others would do the same, such as the last general conference story about the mission in Japan that was “saved by inspiration” that was really misleading.

    #321818
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I love President Holland, and admire his response to the situation. I do wish that the Church would more often take this stance. As it stands, there are many instances where rumors, falsehoods, and misinformation remain uncorrected, and it has greatly “diminished my trust”, and “twarted transparency and humility”. One of the biggest doctrines of the Church I disagree with, is from Moroni, Chapter 7.

    Quote:

    For every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

    According to LDS doctrine, the LDS Church is the only church led, accepted by, and approved of by Christ. It is “the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth.” By this, it stands to reason that any faith inspiring story which builds up faith and brings people unto the LDS Church is inspired of God, and must therefore be true. But it is obvious it is not. You cannot bring people to believe in something that is “true” by distorting, altering, omitting, or concealing the truth. What troubles me most, is when people are converted to mormonism through mis-information, as I have.

    What can we do to correct this? Exactly what President Holland did. When new information arises that goes against our original beliefs and testimony, correct them. Admit when we are wrong, and take steps to ensure any falsehoods are not prepetuated. As Abraham Lincoln put it,

    Quote:

    “It is better to be only sometimes right, than at all times wrong; so soon as I discover my opinions to be erroneous, I shall be ready to renounce them.”

    And again, from John Maynard Keynes,

    Quote:

    “When the facts change, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?”

    #321821
    Anonymous
    Guest

    nibbler wrote:


    It makes me wonder though. Do members in 2017 need literal stories? Would parables be sufficient? That goes for the story teller and the audience. Maybe the story teller feels like they need to stick to those real-life events that have a wow factor to get people to listen?

    It definitely has a greater impact, when a real-life story is shared. But for me, personally, I would have a lot more respect for the Church if they took after Buddha’s teaching,

    Quote:

    “Don’t blindly believe what I say. Don’t believe me because others convince you of my words. Don’t believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don’t rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don’t infer or be deceived by appearances. Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will lead to only delusion. Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real.”
 


    What matters most is the message; Does the message inspire you to be a better, more virtuous, happier individual? Does it bring peace? Then the truthfulness of it shouldn’t matter. There are a thousand beautiful stories which inspire, from the “Lord of the Rings” to “the Great Divorce”. None of those stories ever really happened (in our world, anyway). They are not factually true. They were never declared that way. But to me, they are just as much scripture as the Book of Mormon or the Bible.

    #321822
    Anonymous
    Guest

    In our ward the original version was recently read in Sacrament Meeting. Not retold but read. While I was listening to it I almost gagged because it was way over the top.

    The baby brother who was born after the rebellious son left home in a rage, just happens to be sent on a mission to the very location where this prodigal son lived. The story even begins on this dramatic note of two drooling Doberman Pincers guarding the house and how the two young missionaries just kept praying as they walked past the gated yard. Even the mean dogs backed down. Like a miracle. The young elder steps up and says to the tattooed wild man on the porch are you so and so. Mom and Dad have been praying for you and I am here to bring you home. And the prodigal is found, heart softened, and all rejoiced. David and Goliath, Moses and the Red Sea, had nothing on this most amazing account.

    Where the choking really took off for me, Elder Holland then went on to equate that every person in the story had been led by the Holy Ghost to help find this one man. The young Elders, small and unprotected in this terrible world. The parents who trusted God and had another child. The Brethren who assigned this baby brother to that area. And on and on and on. I didn’t even want to share it here because I didn’t want to spread the message. It reminded me of that fake quote missionaries used to read about “Living in Gordon B. Hinckley’s day. Arriving at the final judgement. Angels bowing and crying before us for our valiance, etc, etc.”

    Yesterday the ward got an email with the retraction. I cried tears of joy. I pray the retraction never gets lost. I salute the family for stopping it in it’s tracks and for Elder Holland to respect the family and publish a formal retraction. That story could have gone on to kill millions.

    #321823
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Nearly all the stories that GAs tell are anonymized. It makes them hard to verify and it actually encourages the use of Faith Promoting Rumors.

    #321824
    Anonymous
    Guest

    We as a church aren’t the only ones who do this. Build a story to meteoric proportions and retell them as faith promoting gospel. I heard one the other on the Catholic Radio Network. I won’t drag out all the details but the synopsis was the Pope healed a young woman’s infertility.

    It was a long winding road of barreness, the miscarriage, and grief (none of which I believe are exaggerated). She and her husband (the man telling the story) were closing out their mission from some far off region of the world. Burdened with sorrow because of their inability to conceive a child. They happened to being passing through Rome on a day when the Pope was out greeting the people. He happened to stop, bless them and pray for them. 18 months later, to the the day of that prayer, a baby boy joined the family. They realized the irony of the date as they held their infant son. It seemed only fitting then, that they name him after Pope Whomever.

    This is a story that will wind it’s way through Catholicism for decades. The young man will tell it, his parents will tell it, the radio DJ’s will tell it. Likely he has a cover story in a magazine.

    We yearn for these. They bolster hope. Religion becomes alive through them. So once again, bless Elder Holland and the family for stepping up and closing the door on the Saturday’s Warrior Mission Tale.

    #321825
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I applaud Elder Holland. He did exactly the right thing.

    Lieratlly-minded people need literal stories. That is why so many people believe the Bible is literal, even when many of the stories obviously are allegorical, mythological, etc.

    Humans gonna human.

    #321826
    Anonymous
    Guest

    A few years ago my daughter was assigned a talk in primary on temples. My wife has an ancestor that did work on the nauvoo temple even after they knew that they would abandon it to the mob.

    I wrote a talk where he comes to SLC and does work on the SLC temple. This temple they would keep. More than 100 years later my daughter’s parents (yup that is DW and me) were married for time and eternity in that same temple. Share testimony of gratitude for the sacrifices and perseverance of our pioneer ancestors and how thankful to know that our family can be together forever.

    It was a great and short talk. Unfortunately it wasn’t completely true. DW’s ancestor was sent to colonize the Ogden area and did not personally work on the SLC temple. DW made me change that part to read that the ancestor indirectly contributed to the SLC temple through tithes and offerings.

    Anyway – Let’s just say that, as a storyteller, I understand how to deviate from strict historicity for dramatic effect.

    I understand religion to be humanity’s attempt to tell its own story – a story that is better than cold reality. A little embellishment is part of the magic.

    #321827
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’m not a fan of JRH, but hey, gotta give him credit for the correction.

    What now? So, will GA’s tell fewer of these doesn’t-quite-sound-real stories?

    I like it when people tell their own experiences or when they tell allegorical stories, but it’s hard to listen to stories that are relayed and probably embellished. The problem with telling a story with which we are not personally acquainted is that we have no filter for how much of our telling is inaccurate.

    Heck, it’s hard enough to get our own stories straight. I’ve listened to people tell stories of events that involved both of us only to realize that their memory of it is vastly different from mine. I know a person who frequently uses the “past continuous” tense (Spanish Imperfect) instead of the “simple past” tense (Spanish Preterite), making the story not about a single event but something that happened from time to time.

    I think more clear and accurate personal stories may be used now to avoid the now-going-to-be-common speculation that a third-party story is made up. I think fewer stories will be employed overall. I can envision more allegories.

    #321828
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I share things Inleaned from my father all the time – inside and outside church.

    The issue is that I quote him a lot (“My dad used to say, ‘…'”) – when, in reality, the quotes are just my summary of what I learned from him. It simply is MUCH easier than trying to explain every time the entire learning process.

    Third-party stories are tricky. I hope fewer are told, and more are researched better before being told.

    #321829
    Anonymous
    Guest

    DarkJedi wrote:


    This brings into question: Should we share stories that we’re not sure of their truth or accuracy? Do faith promoting rumors do more harm than good?

    I think the tricky part begins when we don’t know if the stories are someone recounting an experience, for which I give leeway for misremembering because human brains aren’t that good at it, or if they’re intended to be fictional. I don’t have a problem with faith-promoting stories, as long as it’s understood they’re stories; same goes for personal experiences. That way I can remember to leave room for normal human behavior in the retelling of personal experiences. Even if the person recounting their experience tells me the exact way to interpret their experience for my own life, I still give myself room to disagree. We’re not all the same and sometimes our interpretations of events differs because of those differences. Nothing wrong with that.

    Also, I love stories. However, I think the best stories reflect reality, which include difficulty and heartache. I’m more apt to be drawn in and learn from stories that describe soaring triumph if they also detail paralyzing darkness. If I can’t see the humanity in a story, it doesn’t have as much power because without the humanity it doesn’t apply to me and the world I experience.

    #321830
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I love that he retracted this. I commend his integrity.

    The problem with these types exaggerated stories is that people cling to them as proof that God’s hand is guiding things, that coincidences are God’s actions in our lives. So if they aren’t accurate, then it’s a false witness of that, one that undermines the credibility of the idea that God is guiding things in people’s lives.

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