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  • #211575
    Anonymous
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    This was a blog that someone linked in another forum. One of the posts is interesting to note: tips for leaders to deal with doubting church members.

    https://leadinglds.org/being-an-lds-leader-comfortable-with-doubt-8-tips-to-help-those-you-lead-who-doubt/?utm_content=bufferc68ad&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    What do you think of the article? The 8 tips? Do you see leaders doing a good job on these or not? I don’t know much about who runs the site, but it seems like a good effort at least.

    The 8 tips at a glance are:

    1) Validate, Validate, VALIDATE

    Quote:

    When a doubter hears validation, she suddenly realizes she isn’t going crazy. If she feels like her perspective is scoffed at or dismissed, she will realize the mistake she made by trying to communicate her concerns with her church leader. Remember, she won’t feel loved if she feels like you are trying to win a disagreement or straighten out her beliefs.


    2) Offer a new framework, and here the article provides a more productive view of Fowler than I’ve seen before (one that might help leaders who are stuck in Stage 3 to see value in doubting), so I’ll cut/paste it here:

    Quote:

    Stage 1: “Heavenly Father gave me a nose and a family!” (Toddler age learning)

    Stage 2: “Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, he knows the way!” (Primary age learning)

    Stage 3: “This is the True and Living Church restored by God in a perfect way.” (Black and white learning)

    Stage 4: “The Book of Mormon was mainly translated from a seer stone?!?!?! If this is true I’m going to have to figure out a new way of structuring my faith in order to fully benefit from what the gospel offers.”

    Stage 5: “I love how much nuance there is in the gospel and the history of the restoration. It challenges me with new questions the lead me to a new understanding of the gospel.”

    Stage 6: Jesus Christ was at stage 6 and He was at the highest level of charity and was only focused on love and justice.


    3) Encourage Further Engagement in the Gospel

    Quote:

    As you encourage these individuals to engage in the gospel, stress to them that you are not trying to “reset” their faith, but rather, to help them discover deeper belief.


    4) Give No Impression of Wrongdoing

    Quote:

    Like many situations, the role of the leader is to slow things down and help her take one step at a time. Canceling a temple recommend and removing a church calling might seem like obvious first steps, but you might find those actions only cause distrust and further alienate the member.


    5) Counsel with Your Ward Council

    Quote:

    I assure you there are more individuals questioning basic LDS beliefs in your ward than you realize. That was my experience when I served as a bishop. I fulfilled my responsibilities and didn’t even realize my second counselor was having deep concerns and doubts about the Church. It would serve a ward council well to spend time in your council meetings discussing how to make the three hours of church instruction on Sunday a more inviting atmosphere for all stages of belief. If we are not intentional about discussing this it is easy to default to black and white ward culture and cause some to think, “there is no place for me here.”


    6) Become Familiar with Church Resources (gospel topic essays)

    7) Think Before Testifying

    Quote:

    I encourage testifying, but I fear leaders are bearing testimony to chase doubt out of the room. A leader must realize the reason for a member’s doubt is not the absence of hearing strong testimonies—in fact, hearing a strong testimony can remind the member she still doesn’t have a strong testimony.


    8) Trust the Grace of Jesus Christ

    Quote:

    Remember that as a leader, you were not called to “fix” it. Our heart breaks for those who suddenly feel they are standing on a foundation no longer firm. We want to be the leader who says the right thing, shares the right scripture, and helps reestablish a bulletproof testimony for the member once again. The reality is that many will walk out of a bishop’s office still not sure. They may even spend some time away from the church seeking answers church leaders feel we already have.

    #322986
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I came back to find the link and now it’s in 2 places.

    I never know what to do about LDS Living. Their nuance beats me.

    As for the tips – Much to like. It would be masterful if this list made it to the Top. Validate is hard when you don’t have a clue what’s going on. Which is where removing temple recommends and callings takes normal precedence. Most Bishop’s haven’t a clue about Faith Transitions or anything, so when someone in one walks through the door, they head for auto pilot. That’s not a blame. It’s an observation.

    The autopilot needs to be untaught.

    I like it. I hope it gets tons of air time.

    #322987
    Anonymous
    Guest

    The trouble I’ve found, comes on a few different levels:

    1. What I am feeling goes against the Bishop/Leader’s testimony.

    2. The Church emphasizes (or so it feels), that loss of testimony is caused by wrongdoing; having a faith crisis is a choice (or at least caused by bad choices).

    3. That the member going through a faith crisis wants, or should want, to have their original testimony restored to what it was before.

    The first tip, VALIDATE, is wonderful advice. But I don’t think it will work for many Bishops and Church leaders. What I went through/am going through is often beyond their paradigm. I have no doubt that the majority of them want to understand. But I don’t have much faith in their capacity TO understand. I think many of the other tips, while wonderful in practice, will be challenging if not impossible to most leaders, for the same reason. They’ve even got it hammered into them, that the Spirit will tell them in the very moment what they need to say. This goes against tip 7. I’m also not sure encouraging further engagement is always a good idea. Maybe “set new standards of engagement with the member, according to their capacity and situation.”

    What I think the Church really needs is a complete world view shift. As it stands, the best thing we’ve got going for the Church is, “This is the one and only true Church upon the face of the Earth, and the only one led and accepted by Christ.” I’ll grant, that gives it a lot of umph, if you believe it. But for those in Fowler’s stages 4-6, that’s just not going to cut it. What I’d like to ask the Church leadership is, “I don’t believe that; Why should I remain a member? What else does the Church have going for it?”

    #322988
    Anonymous
    Guest

    dande48 wrote:


    What I’d like to ask the Church leadership is, “I don’t believe that; Why should I remain a member? What else does the Church have going for it?”

    That’s a fascinating question that I’d love to hear the leaders address.

    I’ve made the comment before, it seems like so much of the church experience is centered around reiterating how the church is True again and again and again. The church experience is near one-dimensional in that regard and I feel it reveals an underlying insecurity on the part of the people that would make the truthfulness of the church the central focus of the church experience.

    Here’s another way to ask that same question that may take some of the edge off (lest someone get distracted by the admission to a lack of belief), “Okay, okay, the church is true. We’re in agreement on that point. Now what?”

    dande48 wrote:


    The first tip, VALIDATE, is wonderful advice. But I don’t think it will work for many Bishops and Church leaders. What I went through/am going through is often beyond their paradigm. I have no doubt that the majority of them want to understand. But I don’t have much faith in their capacity TO understand.

    You don’t necessarily have to understand someone to validate them but I agree, I don’t think people that rise to the ranks of leadership in the church are in a position where it’s easy for them to validate. The BP or SP probably feel like is their duty to “fix” people and there’s so much emphasis at church about people’s testimony. Haven’t been to church in a few months, how’s your testimony? Doubts, how’s your testimony? Trials, how’s your testimony? “Testimonies” are just one more thing that leaders feel like they need to fix and it’s super hard to take that step back to validate someone when you’re in fix mode.

    #322989
    Anonymous
    Guest

    dande48 wrote:


    What I went through/am going through is often beyond their paradigm. I have no doubt that the majority of them want to understand. But I don’t have much faith in their capacity TO understand.

    I get this. Last night DW and I were talking about the upcoming baptism of my nephew. My BIL has been through an FC, attends church spottily, and hasn’t paid tithing in years. DW and I were discussing the possibility of BIL performing the baptism and how it largely depends on his bishop. I was recounting to DW that in my interaction with our bishop I have been careful not to challenge his assumptions. I have presented my own lack of tithing compliance as a result of previous failure to realize promised blessings, weak faith, it goes against my frugal nature, and it is a hard thing. Essentially it is 100% my deficiency. My bishop gives his arguments in favor of paying tithing – “It is the only commandment where you can be perfectly obedient” or “your wife needs you to take her back to the temple” etc. Many of which I do not find persuasive but I do not argue. I am frustratingly non-committal and the exchange ends with my promise to continue in faith and continue working on my demons. I told DW, “I think the church would rather I be a believing alcoholic rather than a good family man atheist.” I am not an atheist but the point is that if I were an alcoholic the church would know what to do with me. There is a system and a program in place for alcoholics.

    #322990
    Anonymous
    Guest

    hawkgrrrl wrote:


    Offer a new framework, and here the article provides a more productive view of Fowler than I’ve seen before (one that might help leaders who are stuck in Stage 3 to see value in doubting), so I’ll cut/paste it here:

    Stage 4: “The Book of Mormon was mainly translated from a seer stone?!?!?! If this is true I’m going to have to figure out a new way of structuring my faith in order to fully benefit from what the gospel offers.”

    Stage 5: “I love how much nuance there is in the gospel and the history of the restoration. It challenges me with new questions the lead me to a new understanding of the gospel.”

    Stage 6: Jesus Christ was at stage 6 and He was at the highest level of charity and was only focused on love and justice.

    I thought this was a very believing way to present fowler. I understand stage 4 as where you feel betrayed by the church for not teaching you the warts and all history from the beginning. Stage 5 does find renewed value in our faith system but I believe it also recognizes similar value in competing faiths and traditions.

    #322991
    Anonymous
    Guest

    dande48, I agree for most. There may be exceptions with some leaders, but that will be a minority.

    The comment of, “I don’t believe that; Why should I remain a member? What else does the Church have going for it?”

    It does remind me of a letter someone wrote to their stake president. It is a bit long, but I found it interesting. I am not sure if it is going to get anywhere with the SP. I am wondering if letters like this are worth it. What do others think?

    Quote:

    An Open Letter to LDS Leadership – General and Local I No Longer Need You (In the Kindest Possible Way). After years of life experience (some bad – and others joyful) combined with extensive, careful reading and study (and yes, combined with prayer and a seeking for the divine) I reached the life changing conclusion that I no longer need you. Now please don’t misunderstand me, I think many of you are good people (and I could most likely enjoy your friendship) but I simply don’t need you – or anyone else like you – telling me what God’s word means to me and how I should live my life.

    To put it more concisely, I don’t need (and I certainly do not want) anything further to do with the “corporate church”. I’ve come to abhor the corporate bureaucracy and all of its resulting programs, assignments, meetings and endless busy work. I’ve come to understand that I don’t need any of this nonsense in order to worship Christ; and I do not need any white middle aged men in business suits acting as intermediaries between myself and God. In fact, I find most of modern Mormon cultural and doctrinal “add ons” to the teachings of Christ to be an abject distraction and a monumental waste of time. Mormonism has become a burden – not a help. And, it’s simply getting worse!

    You know, I really do (generally) enjoy my neighbors, friends and members of my Ward family. And, I’d like to continue worshipping Christ with them. However, I’m starting to think that there really is no longer a place for people like me in the LDS Church.

    Now, before I proceed I’d like to convey the reality that I’ve already completed much of the traditional Mormon “Checklist”.

    • Priesthood Ordinations • Full Time Missionary Service • Temple Marriage • Family Born in the Covenant; and all Married in the Temple • Full Tithe Payer; all of my life • Historically Accepted All Church Callings

    *The irony is – after all of this – I’ve never had what one would describe as a spiritual experience. In fact, I’ve felt “the spirit” more while watching a move like Saving Private Ryan, than I ever have in an LDS Chapel.

    At this stage of my life, I only want ONE THING from Mormonism and that is a spiritual, enjoyable and positive Sacrament Service. Period! I want to take the Sacrament, think of the creator and listen to some beautiful music; along with an uplifting, timely message for today. I beg you to please stop the mind numbing repetition of “the same old narrative”. One feels as though we should simply start chanting – and dancing with snakes!

    What I no longer want any part of:

    • Worship of Joseph Smith. Man oh man, have I ever had a belly-full of this.

    • Worship of General Authorities. They’re people just like everyone else. They are not some kind of “higher beings”, deserving of adulation. The only difference between “us and them” is that they are being paid (quite handsomely) through a stipend and other church provided – lifetime – benefits; which the common lay member will never see. • Either we’re a church of Christ or we’re the Church of Joseph Smith. Personally, I want no part of the latter. • Home Teaching – both giving and receiving is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME. This program is a relic from the past (long gone) and has become just another way to shame and control people. The reporting requirements for Home Teaching alone are just like some used by the most onerous sales organizations in the country! • Meetings, Meetings, Meetings. For the love of Heaven, if this is a mirror image of the Celestial Kingdom – I’d “rather be with the sinner’s than the saints”. • I will never again clean buildings owned by the LDS Corporation. This practice DOES NOT represent service; but servitude. The LDS Corporation has plenty of money and resources to have their buildings professionally cleaned. If necessary, they can certainly pull monies from their Real Estate division. I will simply focus on being a good neighbor and friend! • Any talk, lesson, article or commentary which attempts to cover up, whitewash, sweeten, or obfuscate the remarkably messy (and sometimes ugly and cruel) true Mormon history – I’m walking away from; even if this kind of “pretty little lie” comes from our rock stars in SLC.

    The LDS Church is contracting and hundreds of people are walking away every day; you know this, I know it and even Elder Oaks knows it; as per his declaration during the most recent Mission President’s Seminar at the MTC. The dike is breaking and the flow of information and truth is literally blowing the old church away. The tighter LDS Leadership squeeze, shame, preach down too and pound on the members – the smaller and less significant the church will become; as it is already becoming as we speak.

    So, I suppose to underscore the point in a closing summary – I really don’t need you or the Corporate Church in my ongoing worship of Christ. As for the “saving ordinances of the Temple….I’ve started to ask myself “Is the great creator of heaven and the earth REALLY going to ask us to use some ancient, “secret” Masonic handshakes in order to be embraced by him?” The thought of this truly “makes reason stare”! (Especially when you find out where these ceremonies really come from.)

    So what to do:

    Well, I’ve pretty much resigned myself to the reality that the LDS Church is not going to change to better meet the needs (emotional and physical) of its’ members; the culture (and benefits to the leadership) are just too ingrained. So, I’ve just decided to “worship according to the dictates of my own heart” and if the local leaders don’t like it – I really don’t much care.

    Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts and for reading my narrative. I have, and continue to wish you well from a personal standpoint.

    #322992
    Anonymous
    Guest

    LH: I really liked the letter. I’m sure there are plenty who would not, but I’m a little bit nervous about the new curriculum in which we are just talking about talks in RS/PH. The old curriculum wasn’t much better, but the leader worship is completely out of control in this church. It causes problems when it becomes evident that leaders don’t know what they are talking about from time to time.

    #322993
    Anonymous
    Guest

    LH I agree with much of what was contained in that letter. (although there were certainly elements that seemed unnecessarily insulting and certainly not aimed at opening a productive conversation) In truth, I feel like I no longer need the church structure for my spirituality. It was a great support during my formative years but now it seems to impede personal growth as much as it promotes it.

    However, I do need to be part of a community, a heritage, a family. Communities need structure, standards, leadership etc. Not everyone in the community is in the same spiritual place that I am. How can I support them in their spiritual needs while at the same time recognizing that the old structures do not necessarily apply to me in the same degree.

    One thing that I do not do is try to change the structure. 1st because I do not believe that I would be successful and second because I fear being labeled an outsider and being expelled from the community. An organism can reject an organ transplant (even one that it needs to survive) because it is programed to reject the foreign. I certainly do not have any delusions of saving the church organization (whatever that might entail) but I do observe the church membership being similarly programmed to reject the foreign.

    I suppose there are many helpful metaphors for this relationship transition between the church and I. There is the comparison between settlers and explorers. There is the comparison between sheep and llamas. Perhaps my favorite is the idea of being a child of God and transitioning into being an “adult” of God.

    #322994
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Roy wrote:


    I am not an atheist but the point is that if I were an alcoholic the church would know what to do with me. There is a system and a program in place for alcoholics.

    This is one of the reasons why I try to keep all of the commandments required for a temple recommend. I don’t want the Church leadership, members, friends, and families to find any fault in my character for my stance on the “truthfulness” of the Church (also, because they’re important to my wife, and most of them are very good principles to live by). I wouldn’t consider myself an athiest, more of a light deist who enjoys gospel stories and Christmas carols. As you said, Bishop hasn’t a clue what to do with me; but I do have an awesome EQ president, who is one of the best Church leaders I’ve ever had. He’s a master at empathy, respectully acknowledges and validifies alternative views, yet remains firmly believing in the LDS gospel. He’s made me feel like I have a place within the Church, a lot ot offer, and a lot to get out of it. I love that guy.

    LookingHard wrote:


    It does remind me of a letter someone wrote to their stake president. It is a bit long, but I found it interesting. I am not sure if it is going to get anywhere with the SP. I am wondering if letters like this are worth it. What do others think?

    I enjoyed reading the letter, but I don’t think it will be effective. I could see most SP reading the first paragraph or two, and tossing it in the trash. If they feel like they’re been attacked or mocked in any way, they are going to get on the defensive. If they disagree with, even through their own misinterpretation, a single point, they’re liable to reject the rest. We see it all the time in both science and politics.

    “How can you believe that study? Don’t you know _______ is a young-earth creationist?”

    “How can you agree with that policy? Don’t you know ______ is a democrat?”

    This is exacerbated by the black/white, good/evil dichotemy the Church teaches, and even moreso by our teachings on the Spirit (“What is good feels peaceful, what is uncomfortable is of the devil”). It takes a VERY wise man, to be able to pull out the good from a source they do not agree with.

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