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About a month ago, when I was preparing to move to Denver, I was in a Christian thrift store. At one point my mom found a decoration that was obviously orthodox LDS as it had 4 checklists on it of the things you need to do daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly (something like that) to maintain your testimony. She knows I have my beef with that kind of attitude in the church so she was really just calling attention to it in jest. But seriously… It’s really common and quite annoying. I feel it takes away from the Gospel to try to reduce it to checklists.
What is it about Orthodox Mormons that allures them to checklists?
It’s not an Orthodox Mormon thing, so much as a human thing (especially for certain personality types). It keeps things organized and simple. It’s an easy way to gage whether or not one is “on the right track”, “moving in the right direction”. One of the best aspects of religion are the “rituals”, or regularly scheduled and intentional reminders of eternal truths. Unlike what most secularism teaches, you don’t learn or incorperate just by hearing a truth once. Repitition is important. Rituals are important. Most everything on the list, from scripture study to attending the temple, fits into that catagory. I don’t think it takes away from the gospel to have checklists; if you’re not integrating, applying, and continually improving, what’s the point? It works well for a lot of people (provided the objectives are good). If it doesn’t work for you, find something else that does.
I agree with Dande that checklists (and the rules that often accompany them) are mostly human desires. And I’m sure we’re not the only church or religion that uses them, formally or informally. But, I am more like Beefster with the rest. The Pharisees were apparently frequently criticized by Jesus for their following little rules (checklists) while ignoring the bigger picture (commandment) of loving their neighbors. The church is full of modern Pharisees IMO. Some are not so bad, if your orthodox belief is that it is necessary to do certain things (like baptism and priesthood ordination) to enter the CK. Others are absolutely abhorrent to me, and like the Pharisees of old miss the mark.
dande48 wrote:
It’s not an Orthodox Mormon thing, so much as a human thing (especially for certain personality types).
I guess that’s another one of those things I just don’t understand as an INFP. Checklists have a tendency of sucking out my soul, so I avoid them whenever possible.dande48 wrote:
One of the best aspects of religion are the “rituals”, or regularly scheduled and intentional reminders of eternal truths. Unlike what most secularism teaches, you don’t learn or incorperate just by hearing a truth once. Repitition is important. Rituals are important.
Bleh. This is actually where I disagree. When it comes to religious ritualism, I could take it or leave it. I’m cool with the symbolism and it’s kinda cool to try and make sense of it, but I’d be just as happy if all the rituals in the ordinances were replaced with the laying on of hands or something similarly simple. Probably happier actually. I like simplicity.I don’t really enjoy the experience of the temple itself, for instance. I don’t usually get much out of it, though I appreciate occasional baptisms and initiatories. Frankly, I end up doing temple work more because my ancestors (and other peoples’ ancestors) need the ordinances than anything else. Or maybe it’s because family/friends are going. Even when I do endowments alone, I usually end up just being a body in the room waiting for my cues to interact with the ordinance.
I’m a programmer with borderline ADHD and an insatiable appetite for novelty. Repetition bothers me.
Personalities are different; thus, needs are different. My wife is a checklister. It is important for her, since it gives her a sense of accomplishment and security. She is a highly-intelligent person. She is not a Pharisee by any measure. She simply craves organization, and checklists provide that for her. It also helps her be exceptionally good at her job, so it isn’t a negative thing, in and of itself.
I am not a checklister. I focus on the big picture and conceptualize everything. That gives me a sense of purpose that is different than my wife’s, but it also can be a negative in a professional setting where I need to keep track of details.
Combined, we make two fairly normal people – and we each have learned from the other over the years.
Yes, our culture is more checklisty than some others, but it is nowhere close to unique in that regard. I have worked at a Catholic university. We are amateurs still in comparison to many of my Catholic friends.
This is one of my favorite quotes and I share it regularly in talks and in classes. Quote:How do we become true disciples of Jesus Christ?
The Savior Himself provided the answer with this profound declaration: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” This is the essence of what it means to be a true disciple: those who receive Christ Jesus walk with Him.
But this may present a problem for some because there are so many “shoulds” and “should nots” that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principles—many coming from uninspired sources—complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with man-made addenda. One person’s good idea—something that may work for him or her—takes root and becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles can get lost within the labyrinth of “good ideas.”
This was one of the Savior’s criticisms of the religious “experts” of His day, whom He chastised for attending to the hundreds of minor details of the law while neglecting the weightier matters.
So how do we stay aligned with these weightier matters? Is there a constant compass that can help us prioritize our lives, thoughts, and actions?
Once again the Savior revealed the way. When asked to name the greatest commandment, He did not hesitate. “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind,” He said. “This is the first and great commandment.” Coupled with the second great commandment—to love our neighbor as ourselves—we have a compass that provides direction not only for our lives but also for the Lord’s Church on both sides of the veil.
Because love is the great commandment, it ought to be at the center of all and everything we do in our own family, in our Church callings, and in our livelihood. Love is the healing balm that repairs rifts in personal and family relationships. It is the bond that unites families, communities, and nations. Love is the power that initiates friendship, tolerance, civility, and respect. It is the source that overcomes divisiveness and hate. Love is the fire that warms our lives with unparalleled joy and divine hope. Love should be our walk and our talk.
When we truly understand what it means to love as Jesus Christ loves us, the confusion clears and our priorities align. Our walk as disciples of Christ becomes more joyful. Our lives take on new meaning. Our relationship with our Heavenly Father becomes more profound. Obedience becomes a joy rather than a burden.
-Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Oct. 2009People like to take complex ideas and break them down into simple, wrong distillations. There was a home organizer that said you should organize everything by how often you use it — daily, weekly, monthly, etcetera. Totally useless. it’s not not flexible enough. Some people like the idea that all you have to do is answer the TR questions and then you are worthy of heaven. I think you can be a really bad person and answer the TR questions successfully and honestly. I know that because someone I worked with was a Mormon and he was a narcissist. Totally into sucking people dry emotionally and toxic to be around. yet he held a TR and did all the outward stuff. But he was constantly tearing people down, insulting them, puffing himself up, and being a jerk, as others pointed out to me. It’s something blatant that would have to be cleared up, I think, before he would achieve anything near Christlike character. So I would’t hold it against the church — it’s human nature when you are dealing with something as murky as eternal life and gaining the approval of a God you can’t see, and doctrines you can’t verify. People want simplification. And unfortunately, that’s what sells and even puts bad politicians in power (I’m not referring to anyone currently in power, just reflecting on 200 years of history)
I like what Einstein said — things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
FWIW, The gospel of checklists, AKA religion or “doing church” has really fallen out of favor in the wider swath of Christianity and is spoken of disparagingly. (this also seems to coincide with a growing distrust of institutions generally, especially among the rising generation) The following Christian song seems to encapsulate that sentiment:
Quote:Give me rules,
I will break them
Show me lines
I will cross them
I need more than a truth to believe
I need a truth that lives, moves, and breathes
To sweep me off my feet
It’s gotta be more like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
It’s like I’m falling
It’s like I’m falling in love
Give me words
I’ll misuse them
Obligations
I’ll misplace them
Cause all religion ever made of meWas just a sinner with a stone tied to my feet
And love has set me free
It’s gotta be more like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
bolding mine
Roy wrote:
FWIW, The gospel of checklists, AKA religion or “doing church” has really fallen out of favor in the wider swath of Christianity and is spoken of disparagingly. (this also seems to coincide with a growing distrust of institutions generally, especially among the rising generation)The following Christian song seems to encapsulate that sentiment:
Quote:Give me rules,
I will break them
Show me lines
I will cross them
I need more than a truth to believe
I need a truth that lives, moves, and breathes
To sweep me off my feet
It’s gotta be more like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
It’s like I’m falling
It’s like I’m falling in love
Give me words
I’ll misuse them
Obligations
I’ll misplace them
Cause all religion ever made of meWas just a sinner with a stone tied to my feet
And love has set me free
It’s gotta be more like falling in love
Than something to believe in
More like losing my heart
Than giving my allegiance
Caught up, called out
Come take a look at me now
bolding mine
Where did this song come from? Is it in a hymnal somewhere?
You will find it on Christian radio stations. Jason Gray: More like falling in love
There’s nothing inherently wrong with checklists. As a pilot, I learned to follow a checklist that included things like making sure that the flight control surfaces (rudder, ailerons, flaps) all work BEFORE leaving the ground. I don’t know about anybody else, but I hope that the next surgeon I see is someone who follows checklists.
The people that built the Eiffel Tower, the Golden Gate Bridge, and the sewer lines to my house all worked off of checklists.
In a faith context, if a checklist helps someone else stay on a course they want to follow, then good for them. I’ve never been a checklist guy in faith… and I’m off the rails now.
Quote:Acts 2: 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
I don’t think we are saved by how we feel, or what we believe, but how we take the gospel and apply it to our lives. Scriptures are full of examples of people going to prophets asking “what shall we do”? …and so the church gives them what they want.
The church, therefore, is a source of ideas on how to do things better, and can be better to get support from a group than individually trying to figure it out.
When I assembled my backyard grill…I was happy to have instructions (checklists even) to take the wisdom from the manufacturer and those who know how to do it, and follow how to do it or I would have been lost.
My step-son, on the other hand, is of the personality who hates manuals…chucks it aside and just starts putting it together intuitively…because he can. (and sometimes has leftover parts which concerns me a bit).
So…as others have said, there are different personalities. But the guidelines and ideas from others that have passed before us is very helpful to many people.
The checklists themselves have no saving power. And if we become dependent on checklists, we may never develop proper skills ourselves. But they can be good training wheels for that purpose.
I think it’s OK – not great but OK – to use checklists to govern your own behavior. I think it crosses the line when your checklist involved governing other people’s behavior. My wife and daughters WILL watch the women’s session of conference. My son WILL serve a mission. My kids WILL be endowed and temple married. Sorry, but that’s not okay.
On Own Now wrote:
There’s nothing inherently wrong with checklists. As a pilot, I learned to follow a checklist that included things like making sure that the flight control surfaces (rudder, ailerons, flaps) all work BEFORE leaving the ground.I don’t know about anybody else, but I hope that the next surgeon I see is someone who follows checklists.
The people that built the Eiffel Tower, the Golden Gate Bridge, and the sewer lines to my house all worked off of checklists.
Let me say that checklists were at one point very stable, grounding, and certain to me. It says in the Lectures on Faith that on thing needed in order to generate faith sufficient to take hold on salvation was a knowledge that my life was lived in accordance to Gods will. The LofF had an extreme solution – be willing to sacrifice everything including my own life to further God’s work. I had a much more moderate approach – Checklists! I could know that I would be saved, even exalted, in an eternal family by checking off the boxes. I can understand a person living their whole life under such a paradigm and being successful.
However, my new religious framework is much more adjustable. My beliefs are much more like art than an engineered science. I have graduated from the “paint by numbers” program and can experiment with new color combinations, etc. to express the yearning within my soul. It is less structured and more freeform. It is less connect the dots and more exploration.
On Own Now wrote:
There’s nothing inherently wrong with checklists. As a pilot, I learned to follow a checklist that included things like making sure that the flight control surfaces (rudder, ailerons, flaps) all work BEFORE leaving the ground.I don’t know about anybody else, but I hope that the next surgeon I see is someone who follows checklists.
The people that built the Eiffel Tower, the Golden Gate Bridge, and the sewer lines to my house all worked off of checklists.
In a faith context, if a checklist helps someone else stay on a course they want to follow, then good for them. I’ve never been a checklist guy in faith… and I’m off the rails now.
Of course. There is a time and a place for checklists. Most of those find their place in professional contexts.Religion, though… Not so much.
I love those lyrics. I’m going to have to listen to the song.
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