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I was contracted to play music at a fundraiser for a local church. What a breath of fresh air!! 1. The meeting room, like the chapel, had a stage on it. The lighting, overall feel of the place was so peaceful and cool to be in. Very good atmosphere.
2. The pastors — 4 of them, paid, were excellent speakers. They made an appeal for funds to buy land for a building they want to build. They were so transparent — revenues of $750,000,. $150,000 given away to a charitable cause, Growth had doubled in the last year. They shared the cost of the land, and broke down the amount each family could give hypothetically, but were very free will about it all. There was a day of prayer for the new project and that funds would be forthcoming. The way they presented it was not pushy or altar callish, almost tho the point I felt like donating my pay for the evening to their cause — but I didn’t.
3. They used many of the same phrases we hear about God wanting this to come together, etcetera, the need for sacrifice, building up the Kingdom of God.
4. I saw the faith in the faces and body language of the attendees. When the pastors gave comments about the need for sacrifice, faith, for building the Kingdom of God, I saw people nodding. All that was faith based, and I understood the power of faith to do good.
5. I did a quick calculation — they have 900 attendees and 550 members. That means donations are about 1500 to 5000 per person if 30% of them tithe, as in our church (I am guessing in our church but I suspect that is the percent of people who tithe in our church).
There is a lot more I could say — how they paid me to be there, and treated us well, but weren’t pushy about us learning about their church.
They don’t make their members clean the building, and it was nice how they had a very professional meal. I felt like I was among very good people. No end to the people willing to help me carry my heavy equipment out to the car either…overall, a very good experience. Loved the financial transparency and respect for the free will of the people who were in attendance.
I realize how insular I’ve been over the last two decades – it was good to see how a different church handles the same issues we do.
I am not about to jump ship, just wanted to share the experience and how it’s different, and how you CAN be transparent about finances and not have everyone go nit picky about it.
I visit other churches regularly… and why do these horrible analogies always pop in my head? I don’t know, but here goes… You don’t fart on a first date. At least not out loud.
The LDS church and I are an old married couple and we know each others faults. It’s annoying when the church squeezes the toothpaste from the bottom of the tube. It’s irritating when the church leaves the toilet seat down. It really grates on my nerves when the church asks me before making a large purchase. You know, couple stuff. Hey, annoying one another is a sign that you’re in a real relationship.
When I visit other churches it’s like a permanent honeymoon phase.
🙂 SilentDawning wrote:
I am not about to jump ship, just wanted to share the experience and how it’s different, and how you CAN be transparent about finances and not have everyone go nit picky about it.Yes, it is possible.
In one church I attended they discussed a recent purchase of a grand piano and how they were going out of their way to regulate humidity levels in the chapel to protect their purchase. They valued that piano because it was very expensive and all the members were very aware of the sacrifice it took to purchase the piano. Everyone knew because the financial books were open.
Contrast that with the black box approach our church takes. A building pops up, we have no idea how much it costs. They put new carpet on the walls, we have no idea how much that costs. All we know is that the yearly ward budget is just enough to get one rotisserie chicken for the ward Christmas dinner.
😈 So we’re missing the link between the sacrifice and the benefits derived from that sacrifice and we have the apologetic that we clean the buildings to reestablish that link.nibbler wrote:
I visit other churches regularly… and why do these horrible analogies always pop in my head? I don’t know, but here goes…You don’t fart on a first date. At least not out loud.
I know — it looks all rosy on the first date. Nonetheless, the transparency was something a married couple would share. That’s not a first data phenomenon. There were four executive pastors running the place, each probably earning $40 to $80 thousand a year plus benefits. NO problem — the quality was there. They are trained in counseling, leadership, volunteer management. They spoke well, they were effective leaders and managers. People liked them and they seemed very interested in people. They acknowledged me and spoke briefly to me, and even stood out front and listened approvingly during the first part of our performance. They handled questions very well.
I asked the drummer in my group why the membership had doubled — he said he didn’t know, the place was just friendly and well organized. I asked about nursery — something my wife has trouble staffing — they have so many people the nursery leaders only have to do it once a month — not every week like we do it. No chapel cleaning, a nice environment that invites attendance.
I actually learned a lot about speaking and a few techniques, even after decades in the classroom.
For a first date, she sure had my interest from an administrative perspective. Not a religious perspective as to some extent, it’s partly even all made up in my view (to quote Cadence from a prior life).
What impressed me was the receptivity of the audience. I saw FAITH. In our church, I saw duty — people who sit through various lessons and talks with no passion, but these people were smiling, nodding, and I could tell this had all been born out of their faith in whatever is taught in that church.
Have any of you attended other churches, and what were your impressions when you attended for the first time?
Plenty of them. Some prior to FC others afterward. I love other churches. I make it a point when I am out of town to attend a different denomination just because I can. I usually look for some significant church in the area.
At home I attend many different services. I have attended United Unitarian services, Evangelical services and home groups, Catholic masses, and half my life is spent with a local Lutheran church. My kids attended Seventh Day Adventist school and services for 5 years.
Oh and I did attend one Community of Christ (formerly RLDS). It didn’t do much for me. Nice people. Super small congregation. Lack luster service.
All the others I have enjoyed.
As I watch it up close however, I could see where I would get annoyed there, too. My friend is a Pastor. He does spend hours on his sermons and they rock. His wife is their Women’s Pastor. They do some amazing girls get away nights, etc. They are also very insular. If you don’t read, feel, see the bible the way they do – you might as well cross the street and go to the other church. Money runs the church. The in crowd has money. They sit on the church board. They influence the decisions. It’s not all rosy. They like it. They think it’s great. But having watched it over time, I marvel at who suddenly gets inspired to “start their own ministry.” Suddenly a chunk of people move on, feelings are hurt.
I am not saying this is all churches but it’s the church growth in my area. I find I could make a list of trade-offs within each one. Each has it’s own rituals. Some I like, others not.
After all the shopping was done – I found home was just as broken. Sometimes when I get bored enough I set myself down in another service just to fill my cup. But I know over time my critical side would ruin the ambiance if I stayed too long.
mom3 wrote:
After all the shopping was done – I found home was just as broken. Sometimes when I get bored enough I set myself down in another service just to fill my cup. But I know over time my critical side would ruin the ambiance if I stayed too long.
Good analysis — the people moving on and starting their own ministry is what happens in non-profits too — but not as a new ministry, but as a new cause. In our church, you can’t do that very well since there is so much unique scripture, (not that I want to start my own religion), but it’s why I don’t see people do this in our own church — they join another church or just fade away from religion altogether (I think the latter is most common). For some reason, Mormons seem to have a hard time engaging with other religions when they leave the LDS faith.
Why do you think that is?
Silent Dawning asked Quote:For some reason, Mormons seem to have a hard time engaging with other religions when they leave the LDS faith.
Why do you think that is?
#1 – It’s unfamiliar. – Each church is so different. It’s like going to a foreign country. New rules. New etiquette.
#2 – Fear – For lifetime members there is only way place to worship. Anything else is not kosher. It’s hard to relax and enjoy.
#3 – The One True Church – If ours isn’t the “one true” than why spend time anywhere else. Remember they have been the lesser-thans forever.
#4 – The BoM – We spend next to no time in anything but LDS scripture. We know a few NT references but we really are bible novices. It’s creates a foreign language barrier.
#5 – Scriptural interpretation – Our interpretations on the few connections we share in the bible rarely match theirs. Another disconnect.
The following are mine –
Music – Especially Evangelical bands (sorry if I offend) but I can’t appreciate an entire hour of a band in church on a regular basis. I am a hymn girl here. Give me a choir any day.
Politics – I don’t like politics in sermons. In ours either. I usually step out of the room when someone gets off on a political tangent. You can tell me in person or on your facebook, but get off the pulpit with it. (That’s for the left and right leaning churches).
Fundraising for Youth Mission Trips – It’s code for a teen get away, with a few hours of “service” thrown in. I will gladly fund a well digging trip, humanitarian service, so on. But I am totally aware that 5 of those nine days are going to be filled with scuba diving, snorkeling, safari, etc. I will pay for a vacation, just tell me it’s a vacation.
Another random observation. When I visit other churches I try to go for the full experience. If they have a Sunday School class, I attend it. If they have a special meeting for visitors or people that recently joined their church, I attend it. One thing I noticed at several churches, when I attended Sunday School the
averageage of attendees was somewhere north of 70 years old. Most people didn’t show up until the main event. I guess I’ve been attending LDS church for so long that I forgot about that, Sunday School is truly optional with very few attendees, most people think of “going to church” as the equivalent of attending SM only. mom3 wrote:
Oh and I did attend one Community of Christ (formerly RLDS).
Same here. It was kind of neat to hear the familiar sacrament prayer, word for word, offered by a woman. When it came time to bless the “wine” I got a little nervous, I saw purple, the prayer said wine, and I wondered if they actually used wine. I didn’t have it in me to break the WoW, even these days. Yeah it was grape juice, like every other church. In fact the whole experience was interesting, the meetings reminded me a
lotof my experiences with the Presbyterian church but with fish out of water references to the D&C, mostly sections in the 160s. I guess they live on the more recent revelations. SilentDawning wrote:
For some reason, Mormons seem to have a hard time engaging with other religions when they leave the LDS faith.Why do you think that is?
My take is a little different.
#1 – LDS church is organized religion on steroids. Once you’re burnt out on organized religion you’d have a hard time returning to any flavor of it.
#2 – The LDS church experience is deeply rooted in the One True Church mindset. Members already “know” that the other churches are false. Some leave the church when they start to believe that just one more church is false. If you view all churches as false, where do you go?
#3 – Burnout. As mentioned in the other post, most churches are usually one hour, either that or people have no problem whatsoever of creating a boundary that makes church one hour for them and the culture doesn’t try to violate that boundary. Meanwhile at the LDS church the
expectationis three hours. Attending 20 years of LDS church is the butt-in-pew equivalent of attending 60 years in other churches, to say nothing of the time callings add. After a certain number of listen to lecture hours, I can imagine someone saying, “I’ve already gotten everything out of church lectures that I’m ever going to get.” and being done with church. #4 – Familiarity. Being a stranger in a strange land isn’t easy. Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name (Brother/Sister Lastname because I don’t know your first name) and they’re always glad you came (because they need someone to teach EQ because the assigned guy didn’t show up). Jokes aside, the learning curve of integrating into a new tribe can serve as a barrier.
mom3 wrote:
#4 – The BoM – We spend next to no time in anything but LDS scripture. We know a few NT references but we really are bible novices. It’s creates a foreign language barrier.
I agree that there’s a disconnect but I see other churches create well worn roads by fixating on specific passages of scripture, usually the stories that the pastor/preacher likes to tell, and each pastor/preacher has their own perspective. Where I think it bites us is that pastors/preachers at other churches can “afford” to spend 40 hours per week on their lesson, meanwhile we call Brother FearOfPublicSpeaking to give a talk with four days advance notice, give him an assignment to parrot a general conference talk, and… he parrots someone else’s perspective – we always keep lessons within the bounds of the One True Perspective. Booooooooooring.
Yeah, we focus far too much of our church lessons on proving the church is true by citing isolated biblical verses. We’re only biblical scholars in the sense that we can tell you all about one verse of scripture that confused people in the early 1800s so it garnered a special revelation just for us.
mom3 wrote:
#5 – Scriptural interpretation – Our interpretations on the few connections we share in the bible rarely match theirs. Another disconnect.
Which is the very reason I visit other churches. A fresh perspective.
I think the reason I couldn’t do another church for the long term is that there is no claim to authority. Going to a church that doesn’t even have a CLAIM to authority would only make it worse. All they would do is entrench my existing agnosticism. AT one time I believed wholeheartedly that the people at the top of our church spoke to Christ and God, and KNEW for sure that our truth claims were in fact true. Sure knowledge, if you will. Then I started finding it hard to accept that the people at the top really know certain basic truths. Like the Priesthood Ban, for example — when they admitted they didn’t consider it doctrine, didn’t know where it came from (selective memory loss), and when there is changing doctrine on key issues like this, it made me wonder. Behavior of leaders and certain heavy handed policies (like the one year waiting period, tithing attached to extrinsic rewards, etcetera) only furthered these concerns
It might be fun to work alongside good people in another church, and hear uplifting talks about the Person-God relationship, but I would find it hard to make the sacrifices necessary to commit to it, like I have the LDS church.
When I sat there hearing their pitch for money at the last church, I was really impressed with the articulate ministers, their reasoning, their respect for the leadership, but I couldn’t see myself giving $100 a month like they were asking for because I am not sure if they really know either!
At the same time, I have a lot of hope the LDS version is true and going to be worth it some day — for the sake of my family, and myself.
SilentDawning wrote:
I think the reason I couldn’t do another church for the long term is that there is no claim to authority. Going to a church that doesn’t even have a CLAIM to authority would only make it worse. All they would do is entrench my existing agnosticism.
That’s why when I visit churches, including the LDS church, I bring the claim to authority with me… because just as soon as you need it you’ll probably be in a church that doesn’t have one.
Nibbler wrote Quote:That’s why when I visit churches, including the LDS church, I bring the claim to authority with me… because just as soon as you need it you’ll probably be in a church that doesn’t have one.
Standing with you man.
My understanding of many of these modern Christian churches is that it is the relationship with Christ that saves you – and you do not need a church for that part. Then comes the part about living abundantly in Christ. That is the part that involves making life changes as moved upon by the spirit of Jesus that lives within you. This is also where you may need to join with a body of like minded individuals to integrate yourself into the proverbial body of Christ. It is a different business model to be sure but no less valid. Some people may desire the degree of organization, authority, and regulation of the LDS church. I assume that this is most apparent in the youth program. There is a counter culture within LDS youth that is distinct and different from prevailing youth culture.
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