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For some time I have felt that the day will come when I will be put on the spot and “cornered” if you will by some priesthood authority (bishop, sp) and pressed to give some answer as to why I choose not to hold a TR. while the reasons are many, I think if either started to go down the path of asking me the TR questions with the mistaken idea that the worthiness questions would be the cause of my withdrawal. I’m not sure i’d like to go down the path of giving him a full laundry list of concerns to “work on” with me, as I think it’s clear what issues have answers and those many that do not.
So I think all of my answers to belief questions might just be “I Don’t Know”.
I figure this might shut down the needless apologetic responses and yet again try to get everyone to profess and confess their undying devotion to the Church, Q12, Local Leaders etc.— and basically very little to live the true example of Christ which was to focus on helping mankind suffering and spreading internal personal peace.
No one wants to admit being truly uncertain about something. I think it’s an admirable trait that demonstrates humility and honesty. Unfortunately it is not what local leaders want to hear.
Ie “ do you believe the Q12 to be the only authorized with keys to administer all things?” == “I Don’t Know”.
“Do you believe that JS restored the true church and saw god the father and Jesus Christ?” == “I Don’t Know”.
Have any tried this approach? Apart from a leader falling back with the Moroni’s Promise challenge, what do you think I’d run in to?
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I think these might be read as a “no” response. “I want to believe, and I want to attend the temple,” might be more acceptable. I have said something like the following. “The plan is so expansive and beautiful that I hope for it to be true. I am giving effort every day to act on that hope. As I understand it, that is what faith is.” I do not have a TR so I do not feel that there is any need for anyone to ask me probing questions.
I also do not correct people when they say things that I might quibble with. If Bishop says, “I’m sure your wife would love for you to take her back to the temple.” I do not say that my wife has health problems that would prevent her from sitting through a session. I respond, “We are working on that, thank you for your support Bishop.”
If he says “Tithing is a commandment from God, and is the one of the only commandments you can live with perfection, just move the decimal for 1/10th.” I do not contradict him on any particular. I smile and nod and maybe say, “We are working on that, thank you for your support Bishop.”
The trouble I think many of us face, is knowing if we are honest and forthright with our leaders, they will make faulty assumptions and judge us based on those assumptions. So the question is, is it better to give the “correct” answers, even though they aren’t exactly true? Or is it better to give the most honest answer we can, and accept that we could be condemned for it? Either way, the bishop’s view of us isn’t going to be inline with how we view ourselves. So maybe its best to act in a way that will get us what we want. Or maybe its better to always be honest, regarless of how others respond.
One big change I hope the Church makes… I hope they do away with the importance of “correctness of belief” as a requirement for worthiness and salvation. If a man honestly, in his heart of hearts, does not believe the LDS Church is true, but lives their life with honesty, commits themself to service, honors their spouse, etc, would God really hold out on their blessings for following their conscience? Would He condemn us for acting according to what we felt to be true?
I am one of those who decided not to hold a temple recommend. I’ve kept and still keep all the commandments required for it. I just simply don’t believe, and I don’t feel it would be honest for me to hold one. I’m not saying that’s the right course for everyone. “I don’t know” is very different from “I know it’s not”. Being on the fencing, admitting you don’t know, is a very difficult thing when eternity might hang in the balance. But I own my choice. God is welcome to ask me any questions, and I am not going to answer to anyone else.
Roy wrote:I have said something like the following. “The plan is so expansive and beautiful that I hope for it to be true. I am giving effort every day to act on that hope. As I understand it, that is what faith is.”
I do not have a TR so I do not feel that there is any need for anyone to ask me probing questions.
I also do not correct people when they say things that I might quibble with. If Bishop says, “I’m sure your wife would love for you to take her back to the temple.” I do not say that my wife has health problems that would prevent her from sitting through a session. I respond, “We are working on that, thank you for your support Bishop.”
If he says “Tithing is a commandment from God, and is the one of the only commandments you can live with perfection, just move the decimal for 1/10th.” I do not contradict him on any particular. I smile and nod and maybe say, “We are working on that, thank you for your support Bishop.”
I very much like this idea. “We are working… or. We are hoping…” sound like giving effort to changing, though I may not really mean it. Thank you for this.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lotsofgray wrote:
I very much like this idea. “We are working… or. We are hoping…” sound like giving effort to changing, though I may not really mean it. Thank you for this.
Yes, that is definitely the general idea. As far as changing, I think it is healthy and humility inducing to realize that we can change over our lifetime. I currently do not see my perspective moving back to orthodoxy – partly because I know that my current disposition is suspicious of both dogma and spiritual confirmations. However, I do believe that I could move towards more orthopraxy or having a more “conjunctive” faith or even a more “universalizing” faith. Those seem to me to be worthy goals.
I’m not sure having such a discussion with a leader is a foregone conclusion. Other than temple recommend interviews which I have initiated and require only yes or no answers I have not had such an interview or discussion since my return to church about 3 1/2 years ago. My SP and his counselors, as well as most of the HC, know I have doubts but they don’t know what they are. They also know I believe in Christ and that I believe little else matters. When I bear testimony or witness I never say “I know” because I don’t know, and I have been somewhat forward in expressing the idea that none of us really know. I do use words like “I hope” and “I believe” and “I think.” I also make direct statements like “God loves us” or “Jesus Christ has already paid the price.” It takes a bit of work sometimes, but one can really “get away” with saying many things couched in Mormonese (or sheepese as we sometimes call it here) and it does get easier with practice. I think it’s also important to look at what the TR questions are really asking and answer what they ask. For example, they don’t ask if you know anything but they do ask if you believe. Believing can be nebulous enough that it can include wanting to believe or even just hoping.
What DJ said. “I am trying to believe,” or “I want to believe,” or I have hope (or faith),” won’t get challenged by most interveiwers. Of course, leadership roulette keeps it from being universal, but most will accept that sort of response.
Old Timer wrote:
What DJ said.“I am trying to believe,” or “I want to believe,” or I have hope (or faith),” won’t get challenged by most interveiwers. Of course, leadership roulette keeps it from being universal, but most will accept that sort of response.
DarkJedi wrote:I’m not sure having such a discussion with a leader is a foregone conclusion. Other than temple recommend interviews which I have initiated and require only yes or no answers I have not had such an interview or discussion since my return to church about 3 1/2 years ago. My SP and his counselors, as well as most of the HC, know I have doubts but they don’t know what they are. They also know I believe in Christ and that I believe little else matters. When I bear testimony or witness I never say “I know” because I don’t know, and I have been somewhat forward in expressing the idea that none of us really know. I do use words like “I hope” and “I believe” and “I think.” I also make direct statements like “God loves us” or “Jesus Christ has already paid the price.” It takes a bit of work sometimes, but one can really “get away” with saying many things couched in Mormonese (or sheepese as we sometimes call it here) and it does get easier with practice.
I think it’s also important to look at what the TR questions are really asking and answer what they ask. For example, they don’t ask if you know anything but they do ask if you believe. Believing can be nebulous enough that it can include wanting to believe or even just hoping.
Thanks for this. Extremely helpful ideas. I️ guess the on the spot idea is having the hp/Ed president want to do a ppi, or a bishop just “wanting to talk” one on one. And every new leader that comes along and sees I️ don’t have a TR feeling like they need to know why. I️ will try out many of your suggestions and “return and report”.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can’t share any of the reasons. There leader may respond with indifference, all the way to some kind of discipline. We’ve seen the full range here. It’s unpredictable. Best to play it safe. So, my answer is “A temple recommend isn’t something I feel passionate about right now”. If they press…you say “You and I have both been around long enough to know all the typical responses to concerns about holding a temple recommend, so I don’t think it will be productive to go into specifics. It’s not sin, though, and I hope to get one at some point in the future, I just don’t know when”.
Essentially, don’t tell anything about your true feelings, but give vague hope you want one in the future. This keeps you on the feasible list. And off the disloyal, apostate, punishable list. They can’t punish you for what you don’t know!!
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