Why the Church cannot change…at least not too much

Neither the path of change or the path of no change is without risk.

Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of – I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now; largely over these issues…

He calls it apostasy, I’ll call it people leaving because they no longer buy the only thing the church sells, but that’s not my point. Change? People will leave. Don’t change? People will leave. There’s probably a balance, people will still leave. But to reiterate, people are already leaving… so how is that strategy working out? Or are we still in the phase where we’re trying to blame the people that leave?

Following the line of thinking “You can’t change other people. You can only change yourself.” Be the change.

E.g. If you want the church to change to a 2 hour block stop waiting for the change, be the change. Start attending for only two of the three hours. Guilt free! Don’t want to do home or visiting teaching? Don’t do it. Guilt free! Make the church experience the one you want to have.

Gerald, I think you are right on many of your points.

I am certainly one for pushing for change in the church, but there are those that if change comes too quickly (i.e. temple and priesthood ban for blacks) that people will splinter off (such as some of the polygamist factions that feel they are holding on to the TRUE church doctrine).

It can be quite a line to walk and I think this is where some of the double-speak that we hear from our leaders. They are just trying to keep as many people “in” as they can.

I think it’s important to take a TBM perspective here. The biggest thing with the Church, is that it’s “true”. The doctrine has stayed exactly the same, eternal, since the creation of Adam. Any future releaved doctrine teaches us things that have always been, and any past leaders were only voicing their opinion when they told us otherwise. They will never come out and say the doctrine “changed”, and I don’t think they feel it has changed themselves.

“Every great scientific truth goes through three phases. First, people deny it. Second, they say it conflicts with the Bible. Third, they say they’ve known it all along.”

I don’t know if I’m cynical enough to believe that the Church leaders would or would not “change” doctrine because of risk of offending the membership. The elect would follow them to the end of the earth, and offending people is just God’s way of sifting the wheat from the tares. God’s will does not bend to the will of the membership. Subconciously (where all revelations come from), it’s probably a different story, where the bretheren are influnced by all sorts of factors.

There’s also the fact that humans are big into the “Us vs Them” mentality. Humans can’t stand the bordom of having nothing to fight for.

Major changes have occurred when top leaders saw the need to change and prayed sincerely about it. They thought they knew change was necessary, and they got revelation confirming their views.

It helped when the leader(s) had a “change is okay” mentality.

Right now, we have a bit of a convergence window possible with regard to some fairly major changes, and there have been quite a few small movements toward major changes. I think two or three senior leaders might need to be gone before major changes can occur in isolation, and those leaders need to be replaced by people who see the world more like a few of the senior apostles and most of the junior apostles, but I truly think the changes will continue more quickly than I thought possible twenty years ago.

I think two or three senior leaders might need to be gone before major changes can occur in isolation, and those leaders need to be replaced by people who see the world more like a few of the senior apostles and most of the junior apostles, but I truly think the changes will continue more quickly than I thought possible twenty years ago.

I might agree with you, but “Bednar”!

I read enough blogs and listen to enough podcasts from the liberal side of the Mormon spectrum to know that what many people look for, focus on, and hope for is change! Change in doctrines, change in policy, change in leadership, change in so many things that will make the Mormon faith (from their perspective) a closer approximation of Christ’s gospel, or make it more inclusive, more universal, more all encompassing. These are laudable goals in many ways but I have come to the conclusion that such dramatic changes will not occur…at least not quickly. To make the kinds of changes that more liberal Mormons find palatable would almost assuredly alienate a large percentage of the more hardline membership. The LDS leadership has only to look at their “sister” church, the Community of Christ for an example of what occurs when you “liberalize.”

I was listening to a podcast by a historian from the Community of Christ …The training had the effect of encouraging the leadership to “loosen up” on some of the more dogmatic doctrines they had. This, in turn, helped the RLDS Church establish a foundation for giving women the priesthood back in the 80’s. Such changes can be considered good on the one hand but had significant consequences: a large percentage of their membership left as a result…I have to believe that the LDS Church leadership are aware of these events and recognize the inherent danger in being less literal and more nuanced. Such changes would threaten the very existence of the Church and, at the least, would create a significant exodus of members for whom the stability and structure of the Church are the very things that keep them in it. I just don’t think they will make big changes for that reason….it’s just too risky.

I am happy to have someone else fill in details or even correct anything I have wrong regarding the history of the Community of Christ (my memory is a bit sketchy) but I just don’t see big changes coming down any time soon. That doesn’t mean that change shouldn’t be advocated where viewed necessary but such advocates probably ought to steel themselves for an inevitable disappointment. Too many members of the Church like the Church just the way it is…Feel free to disagree!

Personally I don’t think the RLDS/Community of Christ is a very good example of what to expect if any major changes are made because it seems like they never had nearly the same number of followers and momentum as the LDS Church to begin with. For example, it looks like they never had anything like the Mormon corridor with so many followers concentrated in so many cities and towns where they are not an insignificant minority but in many cases the predominant religion in the area. All you have to do is look at the fact that the LDS Church already abandoned the practice of polygamy (in this life) and the racial priesthood ban to see that it is clearly possible for them to make at least some major changes and actually have the majority of members largely take it in stride rather than be alienated by it. In fact, if they hadn’t made these changes I think the Church would already be much smaller and less influential now than it currently is.

I don’t really expect the leaders to make radical changes any time soon but trying to cater to what the members want and what will make the majority happy or even what will be best for the Church’s survival is not something that I think Church leaders really focus on that much. Personally I think the main reason they don’t make major changes is simply because they feel like it is not really their place to change the doctrines and established LDS traditions in most cases and the way the leaders are selected precisely based on their strong loyalty to the Church and its teachings above all else. However, one problem with the status quo is that it looks like it simply isn’t going to produce the type of results they were used to seeing in past decades anyway due to smaller families on average now, the impact of the internet, homophobia/sexism becoming increasingly unpopular, etc. It will be interesting to watch how the next few decades play out for the Church. Personally I expect a slow decline as more and more baby boomers die off and a significant number of active members continue to leave without nearly enough younger members and converts to replace them from one generation to the next.

I might agree with you, but “Bednar”

I read something the other day, where he is more of a follower than a leader. Give him a list of tasks or things to do and he follows. He is rather introverted. Family centric. In the long run we may see shifts in him as different leaders step in.

Who will he follow when he’s running the show?

If he continues to follow when he’s running the show he’ll probably follow tradition, which doesn’t make me think “change.”