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It will be interesting to see if we have a change in the counselors of the FP when RMN is made President. It can and has happened, though the norm is to keep the counselors as they are. The last time the incoming President changed the FP Counselors was in ’85 when ETB became the President, and he moved Marion G Romney back to the 12. However that was clearly a health issue. MGR was basically incapacitated at the time. In fact, though he was the senior member of the Q12, Howard W Hunter was made the Acting President of the Q12.
When JFS was made president, he moved 86-year-old but still participating HBBrown back to the Q12 and installed 70-year-old HBLee.
A prior interesting time, though not a release from the FP, occurred when David O McKay became the President. The FP had been GAS, JReuben Clark 1st Counselor, DOM 2nd Counselor. But when DOM became president, he called Stephen L Richards as 1st Counselor and demoted JRC to 2nd counselor.
Technically, the FP is dissolved upon the death of the President, so only if they are called again, do they keep that calling. For example, when BY died, there were three counselors in the FP, one of whom was his son John W Young. When BY died, the FP was dissolved and the Q12 ruled the Church. Three years later, when John Taylor became the president, he called one new counselor (George Q Cannon), kept one from BY days (Joseph F Smith) and didn’t recall two of them, even though they were still living (John W Young and Dan Wells).
It would be surprising if DFU were removed from the FP, but it is possible. I do think there’s a smallish chance that HBE is moved back to the quorum. Here’s my thinking:
– HBE is 84 years old. With a 93-year-old President, (relative) youth wouldn’t be a bad thing.
– HBE isn’t the most dynamic personality. Hey, I like him a lot as a sort of easy-going uncle who takes you fishing, but RMN could easily go with one of the more powerful types, who, IMO, are DHO, JRH, DAB and GES.
– RMN is a bit of a retrencher. Family Proclamation, Sabbath Day, “mind and will of the Lord” statements. I could see him pulling another retrench-oriented personality in with himself, like DHO or NLA.
It seems less likely that DHO would be put in, because he will already be the influential President of the Q12 and is also older at 85. On the other hand, RMN and DHO have been joined at the hip since being announced together as the newest Apostles in April, 1984 and seem to share a lot of the same directive-driven-faith concepts.
The best bet is clearly RMN, HBE and DFU, but it’s not a done deal. My best alternate guess is RMN, DFU, DAB.
I’m just totally gonna speculate…but I’m gonna say Bednar gets into the 1st Presidency now. Ballard and Bednar…for some reason i can see Nelson making a change. You are right that the PResidency is dissolved…so if they call them again to the Presidency, they get called and set apart again which certainly happens.
I am not sure they see the differences in apostles and their viewpoints the way members do. They know each other pretty well with all their meetings, better than we do. But I do see a strategy of leadership training and opportunities to do things as something they consider with their counselor selections. Both Hinckley and Monson served in Presidencies for a while and it was kind of some training to prepare for their calling one day as prophet. i could see them thinking Bednar would benefit from that role and see how the presidency works.
I wonder how long it will take for the announcements to be made.
Interesting thoughts. I agree that we will likely see a retrenchment to a sort of 80s version of the church, and I think RMN already sees things as revelation that I don’t necessarily see as revelation- or at least he says he does. Saying things you advocate for are revelation is a good way to control the believing masses IMO, and I think RMN sees that as well. This is what I fear about his administration and why I hoped TSM would linger longer. I honestly think DHO would be less likely to do such a retrenchment, although I don’t see tons of progression under DHO either. As far as counselors, I’m not sure RMN will rock the boat. I see your point about HBE, and I like him precisely because he is who he is. On the other hand, that’s a good reason to keep him around – he’s not much of a threat and probably not super assertive. DFU is probably a bit more assertive and I believe he says things that “the prophet” might not be able (or willing) to say in public sometimes. DFU is also very popular, even with the orthodox. My hope is he will retain the two counselors. Worst case is releasing both and calling other hardliners (e.g. DAB).
This also puts MRB in line after DHO – another one I would prefer not to be in the big chair.
Of course this also brings into question who will the new apostles be. We now have two openings that could and likely will be filled in April. Is a more conservative/hardline/orthodox president like RMN more likely to push for more conservative/hardline/orthodox candidates? If so, does that mean two more white Americans?
My main concerns: 1) We become the Church of Anti-Gay Marriage of Latter-day Saints. It feels like this has already become our identity, the hill the church has currently decided to die on. It seems like I can’t make it very far at church before I hear a lesson geared toward “traditional marriage” or “religious freedom,” which to me have become our culture’s way of pouting over the SCotUS’ decision a few years back. All the “world is wicked” and them rhetoric at church feels like a push back to society’s growing acceptance of gay marriage.
It’s like the faith crisis thing… there’s a trap in defining yourself by what you don’t like as opposed to focusing on what you do like. Our church really, and I mean really, wants the world to know it’s against gay marriage and is going to take every opportunity to remind everyone. Our message we want to share with the world is that there’s something out there that we won’t tolerate as opposed to the message being “how can I help you?” or something like that.
Families are at the center of it all… but not your family however you define it, this narrowly defined vision of what a family should be and it has grown tiresome.
Now, it appears that Nelson and Oaks are at the top of the list of leaders pushing this agenda so I’m not holding my breath for change. But it sure would be nice if they learned that there is more than one type of family in the world and that you can still learn love from the world. Guys, the world is not as scary as you think.
2) How we address criticism. Right now the strategy is be critical of the critics. Does the church make room for people that don’t have correlated belief? Or do the uncorrelated Mormons get an endless barrage of talks that are more interested in refuting and rebutting instead of validating and loving?
Change the names? Wont’ matter. Do we really council together, like the big push this year? What’s the point of a council if we truly achieve the goal of correlated beliefs?
I think I said on the other thread that Monson may have been gŕoomed for the presidency a very long time ago, when he was made an apostle as a youngish man. This may be the tactic being used for Bednar. Personally I’ve never seen what the big deal about DAB is. HBE doesn’t inspire strong emotions in me – oddly I keep forgetting how old he is. I find HBE inoffensive while DAB seems to be morenof a golden boy who is willing to push hardline issues. I agree about the gay issue. There are so many other issues that we could pick on and we go for that one… sheesh.
As I’ve said elsewhere I think we narrowly avoided a Packer presidency. I think he would have been enough to get me out of the church. He too had strong admirers, but he would have been like a bull in a china shop if he got power.
Piggy backing on Dark Jedi and Nibbler’s observations – about the direction things stand to go (nor would it be surprising). I asked myself a question – Is this a good time to leave or stay? I am not planning on leaving. But I believe the Proclamation and the “Thus Sayeth” style may be too much for many. So does a person stay just to be the balast or do you walk until another season when it’s less ummmm…?
RMN could do exactly what was done in 1970. I mentioned above that JFS replaced HBBrown with HBLee in the FP. Let me dive into a bit more detail. When JFS became Church President, he was 93 and in declining health. The FP as it was organized under DOM had HBBrown (age 86) as 1st Counselor and NLTanner (age 71) as 2nd Counseler. At this time, HBLee was next in line behind JFS, and Lee was 70… 23 years younger than JFS.
When JFS organized the FP, he put HBLee as 1st Counselor, kept NLTanner as 2nd, and returned HBBrown to the Q12. Conspiracy theorists seem to believe JFS did this because of differences with HBBrown over either the Ban or JFS’s ability to lead the Church at his advanced age. Yet the result was that the man almost certainly to become the next President was made the 1st Counselor, allowing HBLee to effectively run the day-to-day affairs of the Church during the JFS Presidency.
Fast-forward to 2017. The next in line now is DHO, who while not exactly youthful, is eight years younger than RMN, and could very well become the next President. The Counselors under TSM were HBE (84) and DFU (77). The difference now is that RMN seems completely capable at present to perform the duties the office requires and is in great health from an outward appearances perspective. If RMN were to repeat what was done in 1970, we’d have RMN, DHO, and DFU in the FP.
I wouldn’t mind Elder Oaks in the FP, especially with Elder Uchtdorf. He actually has been somewhat progressive when it comes to women and the Priesthood, and I don’t see him as any more hardline than the other possibilities mentioned. SamBee wrote:
I think I said on the other thread that Monson may have been gŕoomed for the presidency a very long time ago, when he was made an apostle as a youngish man. This may be the tactic being used for Bednar. Personally I’ve never seen what the big deal about DAB is. HBE doesn’t inspire strong emotions in me – oddly I keep forgetting how old he is. I find HBE inoffensive while DAB seems to be morenof a golden boy who is willing to push hardline issues.I agree about the gay issue. There are so many other issues that we could pick on and we go for that one… sheesh.
As I’ve said elsewhere I think we narrowly avoided a Packer presidency. I think he would have been enough to get me out of the church. He too had strong admirers, but he would have been like a bull in a china shop if he got power.
I agree with every last word you’ve said.
Personally, I’ll be glad when we’re looking at “President” Uchtdorf (and in more ways than one).
I think an Uchtdorf presidency would be great. The church loves to try and do PR, but doesn’t always conduct it well. I see Uchtdorf as being able to unite the factions in the church as well as having a charisma which would go down well with the non-LDS media. I’m not saying he’d be all surface, but these are important. GBH was okay with the media, but I wasn’t keen on that Larry King interview. It came over as too guarded and prepared.
Plus, Uchtdorf is not American. He has no pioneer or Utah heritage, he learnt English, grew up in a foreign ward etc. (His English is superb though.) He even qualifies as a former refugee… This gives him a personal insight into the lives of millions of members.
That said, I think he probably “gets” what is happening in the USA.
I’m sure DFU has some faults, but he certainly comes over well.
Quote:I agree with every last word you’ve said.
Thanks.
🙂 It’s not often people do.I don’t care what he does with HBE as long as he keeps DFU in the presidency. DHO and DAB wouldn’t be great, but I could probably deal with it. I hope we get a Black African Apostle and an Asian Apostle. It’s a little surfacy, but I think the church needs an international/globalist perspective right now. It also doesn’t hurt to have a little extra diversity for the critics of the church.
My hopes with a RMN presidency is that the church opens Mainland China for missionary work and actually having branches/wards and stakes/districts. I’m not sure if that’s a close thing politically, but I’m hoping for it anyway.
Women and the priesthood? Maybe. I’m not really sure who still needs to die for that, if anyone. If that’s actually where it’s supposed to go. (I hope it is)
Beefster wrote:
I don’t care what he does with HBE as long as he keeps DFU in the presidency. DHO and DAB wouldn’t be great, but I could probably deal with it.I hope we get a Black African Apostle and an Asian Apostle. It’s a little surfacy, but I think the church needs an international/globalist perspective right now. It also doesn’t hurt to have a little extra diversity for the critics of the church.
I’m right there with you. I hope for women to be given the Priesthood, although I feel like that may still be a ways off. I feel like I already have It, personally. I used the Lord’s power last night to heal my son’s fever.
😯 :silent: But it would be nice to have it officially acknowledged.I echo your hope of retaining Uchtdorf in the First Presidency!!
I hope, too, for more international representation in the Q12, but I’m also wondering if there’s resistance to it because last time the Church put an Asian person in a General Presidency she said beautiful, dangerous things like this:
Beefster wrote:
My hopes with a RMN presidency is that the church opens Mainland China for missionary work and actually having branches/wards and stakes/districts. I’m not sure if that’s a close thing politically, but I’m hoping for it anyway.I have a friend that just got back from living in Shanghai. He said that every single Sunday they start sacrament meeting telling everyone that they are there under the privileged of the government with the stipulation they do no proselyting at all while they are in China. This is read again at the end of the meeting. Interesting. There are so many political issues going on that I don’t see China opening up to this right now. My $0.02.
Things can change. A heck of a lot changed in the Catholic church when it got Pope Francis, so who knows? I’d bet on RMN at least making
someheadway on the issue. squarepeg wrote:
I’m right there with you. I hope for women to be given the Priesthood, although I feel like that may still be a ways off. I feel like I already have It, personally. I used the Lord’s power last night to heal my son’s fever.😯 :silent: But it would be nice to have it officially acknowledged.
What’s weird is that it used to be common for women to give blessings of healing in the early church. It wasn’t done with priesthoodauthority, but it was still the power of God. Somewhere along the line, this was discouraged and it faded into obscurity. That leaves me scratching my head. The early church was, strangely, leaps and bounds ahead of most institutions at the time when it came to women’s rights, but now it lags behind somewhat. Funny how that happens. In priesthood sessions, there have been a number of talks on the priesthood
powervs priesthood authorityand I suppose you probably have priesthood powerthrough various means and righteous living. You have yet to receive the priesthood authority, and TBH, I think that really only stops you from taking part in official ordinances. I think the laying on of hands for healing from those without priesthood authority is frowned upon, but there’s nothing stopping you from that either. I just don’t think you can use oil. I would be surprised if women didn’t get some form of priesthood authority in the eternities. The only way I could see women not getting the priesthood in mortality ever is if the female priesthood is fundamentally different. Perhaps it pertains more to the spirit body (whereas the male priesthood corresponds to the physical body), but that’s just a speculative possibility.
Re: Ordain women. I got to thinking. Scenario: The Tuesday after RMN is made the president of the church he comes out with a policy ordaining women to the priesthood… and I win the powerball without even buying a lotto ticket and the Browns win a football game.
How would women be represented in the Q12? There are currently two vacancies, I suppose both vacancies could be filled by a woman. If so, there would be 13 men and 2 women in the Q15. The women would be the most junior apostles, and if Renlund lives to a similar age as current top leaders that means it could be 25 to 30 years before a woman could get some seniority in the quorum and probably that long or longer before the ratio of men to women approached 50:50 because they wouldn’t likely call 6 women in a row to balance things out, new positions would be filled by men and women as slots opened up.
Unless they shook things up majorly. Overhauled succession rules, released apostles, etc.
A thought experiment. Nothing more.
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