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  • #211871
    Anonymous
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    In the crumbling of my worldview, polygamy became very unsettling to me. The idea of polygamy doesn’t so much bother me (hey, if women are okay with sharing a husband, that’s their prerogative) as its practice in the early church. Joseph Smith’s alleged involvement with other women did not sit right with me. Then I stumbled on this.

    https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-im-abandoning-polygamy.html” class=”bbcode_url”>https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-im-abandoning-polygamy.html

    I haven’t crosschecked any sources, but for some reason, I’m more inclined to believe this interpretation. Polygamy was really the only thing standing in my way of saying that Joseph Smith was a prophet. But maybe he wasn’t a polygamist. History is written by the winners- in this case it was Brigham Young. Having a polygamist Joseph Smith favored him, so he rewrote history that way- including getting his wives and many other women lie about being married to Joseph Smith.

    At this point, I can say that I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and that Brigham Young–and by implication, all church presidents that followed–was not. This is not to say that many of the later presidents were not good men, but that’s something for another discussion.

    “JS was a prophet and BY wasn’t” was an idea I’ve felt gravitated toward since my shelf broke on tithing and polygamy. It resolves my feelings rather elegantly, as I still have favorable feelings toward the First Vision and am inclined to believe that it really happened in some sense or another.

    #326587
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Good find, Beefster!

    I’ve toyed with the idea as well. The RLDS/Community of Christ believe this whole-heartedly. Emma Smith believed this too. The BOM preaches explicitly against polygammy, and much of the time when it was said to have been practiced in JS time was in secret. Going back to the whole Fanny Alger incident, it was later claimed she was his first polygamous wife, but Emma and Oliver both seemed to deny it, and it is not on Church records. Also, I think it’s very interesting how, after “marrying” 20+ women, he never fathered any children from them that we know of (and oh, how we LOOKED!).

    On the other hand, the more I learn about Brigham Young the more I dislike him. Part of me is ashamed to have graduated from a school baring his name. He was a selfish, vindictive, greedy son of a gun. I’ve had much more of a problem with him, than I ever had with Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, as a whole, is a hot, fascinating mess. But he always seemed like the sort of guy I could relate to, and be best buds.

    I like that narrative. I’m not sure it’s all true, but neither is our current “Church History”. Of the two it’s definitely the better option to believe in.

    #326588
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I can’t help but wonder how much BY slandered JS to assert his position as president of the church. I wonder if the legend that BY’s voice sounded like JS when he took over is made up just to make him look good. I think I remember reading somewhere that that was just a misinterpretation of an honest record, but it could very well be pro-BY propaganda. Unfortunately, the modern church has every incentive to defend BY because it sort of depends on him being a prophet for its own legitimacy. Even when that means accepting lies (or at least unproven allegations) about Joseph Smith…

    There are some gems from BY, but once you look at polygamy, the priesthood ban, and tithing politics, it honestly makes me want to have nothing to do with him and it’s a shame my CS degree bears his name. OTOH, It was a legitimately good school despite all the honor code politics and the dog and pony show known as Provo culture.

    I just wonder if the Community of Christ is the actual true church… Y’know. If there is such a thing.

    #326589
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I read that article years ago. He makes compelling arguments.

    I’ll play devils advocate.

    Beefster wrote:

    Having a polygamist Joseph Smith favored him, so he rewrote history that way-

    And having Joseph a non-polygamist favors others, so they write history that way. Everything has a bias. I suspect that there are many people that simply can’t accept Joseph as a polygamist because they want to keep Joseph pristine, without a deal breaker issue, so they can continue to protect a belief that he restored the One True Church.

    But that’s the fun in all of this. You can dig up sources or make assumptions to support either conclusion. At this point you can believe what you want to believe.

    Beefster wrote:

    At this point, I can say that I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and that Brigham Young–and by implication, all church presidents that followed–was not.

    Why? Because there has to be an unbroken chain of the priesthood, received directly from Peter, James, and John, passed from one well above average righteous person to another well above average righteous person up until today? I think that’s the appeal for the Snufferites and people with a similar attitude, that Joseph did restore the One True Church, it’s the modern church that is in a state of apostasy, and if we could just restore Joseph’s church we’d be on the right track again.

    What if you aren’t chasing a One True Church?

    As for the debate over who was or was not a prophet… I find the whole thing a lot easier to digest when I consider everyone a prophet. Anyone can say something truly inspiring, but that doesn’t mean that everything they say is inspired. Also, when everyone is a prophet, it means that I don’t automatically write off someone I don’t think of as a prophet and miss out on something that could potentially be inspiring.

    I think there’s also a distinction between prophet and president of the church. Anyone can be prophetic but only one person can be the president of the church. Notice how the church manuals that we used during RS/PH all those years were titled “Teachings of the Presidents of the Church,” not “Teachings of the Prophets of the Church?” :think:

    And to continue my role as devils advocate… I think a lot of this comes from conditioning. Lots and lots of conditioning. I too went down this route. I was conditioned in many ways. Conditioned to believe the church was True. Conditioned to believe that leaving the church would put my soul on a path to damnation. Conditioned to believe that god only operates with people when they reach an otherworldly level of righteousness. Etc.

    When belief is that strong it’s hard to escape the conditioning, the conditioning becomes hardwired paths in our brain. And just to throw it out there, not all conditioning is bad. For instance, I’m glad I’m conditioned to be cautious when crossing roads.

    Just me playing devils advocate with you Beefster… again. 🙂 It’s a good thing that there are many paths to choose from. If there was only one path life would be boring… at least to me. ;)

    #326590
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I believe that the Church (under BY) in the early Utah period did rewrite history in some respects to make it seem like the succession was all but obvious and the migration to Utah was foretold.

    I do not believe that BY manufactured evidence of the polygamy of JS. There are just too many written records and first person remembrances. BY was a man to be feared but he had his enemies. Even when people escaped his reach and traveled around speaking ill of BY, I do not recall anyone claiming that they were forced to lie in attributing this doctrine to JS.

    JS was passionate and mercurial, full of confidence and dreams. He created what became a billion-dollar self perpetuating organization from the backwoods of the American frontier.

    What does it mean to be a prophet? Does it mean to have premonitions of the future? (JS was not very good at predicting the future) Does it mean producing new scripture? (JS and Mohammed are both pretty prolific in this category.) Is there a certain level of righteousness that is a prerequisite? Suppose MLK was a prophet. Would he be less of a prophet because he was unfaithful to his wife?

    In some ways the very traits that made JS great also made him terrible. He refused to be trammeled and confined to the well worn traditions, creeds, institutions, and arguments of the day. Instead of just picking a side and being content with his lot in life, he created something new – a new religion was born and there was collateral damage. Similarly, JS refused to be trammeled and confined by traditional standard of marriage and monogamy and playing by someone else’s rules. He looked at the ancient patriarchs and asked how they could practice polygamy and still be righteous before God. JS created something new – a new form of marriage was born and there was collateral damage.

    #326591
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Here’s the thing. Time to feel the power of the dark side. Fact is JS was a polygamist. The church admits as much. I was not one of those who did not know it prior to the essays, and in fact had been taught it at an early age relative to the church (within the first year or so of my membership in the early 80s). I did not know some of his wives were very young (almost 15!) and I didn’t know about the polyandry per se. I do like the CoC and agree with much of their theology that differs from ours (including polygamy) and I might even like to be a member. But denying that JS was a polygamist just isn’t plausible. It is arguable that he may not have had sex with any of those women, and he at least gave some lip service to resisting the idea of polygamy. But I sincerely question the idea he didn’t have sex with Fanny Alger – what was the whole point of the “nasty affair” if he did not? And I question the angel and the flaming sword thing (although I don’t question angels or flaming swords themselves :D ).

    So you can choose to believe whatever you want, don’t ever let facts get in the way especially when it comes to spiritual things. We all have our own ways of dealing with things we don’t know the answers to or don’t know the full stories behind – we see through a glass darkly. The whole of canonized scripture is really only human attempts at explaining things we don’t understand and/or can’t explain. And that’s perfectly OK – just like it’s perfectly OK for some to believe literally and some not.

    This is just an aside. Today in priesthood we were discussing Jesus and the Sabbath (right on topic). This scripture popped out and resonated:

    Quote:

    How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles?

    While said of Jesus, in my mind it applies to JS just as well. That’s how I deal with it.

    #326592
    Anonymous
    Guest

    In the end, I don’t really know. I wasn’t there and anyone with an agenda can fabricate a historical record. All we have to go on is history written by the church, which could very well be fabricated or embellished. There were plenty of contemporary accusations about Joseph Smith having multiple wives. Maybe he did. But if he really was secretly married to Fanny Alger and had sex with her, he did a damn good job at hiding it. OTOH, I find it highly suspicious that Section 132 didn’t surface until 8 years after Joseph’s death.

    I suppose I don’t need Joseph Smith to not be a polygamist for his teachings to be valuable. I just don’t think it’s all that consistent with what I know and I personally find that the narrative that “factually” ties him down as a secret polygamist is dubious, whereas the fact that Brigham Young was a polygamist is unquestionably indisputable. But I haven’t looked at primary sources, so I can easily be wrong.

    #326593
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Beefster wrote:


    I wasn’t there and anyone with an agenda can fabricate a historical record. All we have to go on is history written by the church, which could very well be fabricated or embellished.

    yes, that is possible. But I think it helps move past some faith crisis issues to try to find the facts as we know them.

    Regardless of the church re-writing history or not, what the church currently teaches is this:

    Quote:

    The first plural marriage in Nauvoo took place when Louisa Beaman and Joseph Smith were sealed in April 1841.19 Joseph married many additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage. The practice spread slowly at first. By June 1844, when Joseph died, approximately 29 men and 50 women had entered into plural marriage, in addition to Joseph and his wives.

    If that happened exactly like that or not is one thing, but the church is teaching these things, and that is a fact.

    So…one way or another, you wrestle with if the church practiced polygamy, or if the church is wrong about saying they did. It’s a problem either way.

    Beefster wrote:


    I suppose I don’t need Joseph Smith to not be a polygamist for his teachings to be valuable.

    I believe this is a good place to land, and to work on finding truth and finding valuable stuff that helps your life today, regardless if the church was wrong or taught problematic teachings in the past. You can adjust your views of what the church is, what prophets are, and still cling to valuable things taught in today’s church by today’s prophet.

    I liked how the church website acknowledged the complexity of this issue, and agree with what they said about it:

    Quote:

    Some ambiguity will always accompany our knowledge about this issue. Like the participants, we “see through a glass, darkly” and are asked to walk by faith.

    The takeaway for me from studying this issue, is that this principle of faith and church and church leaders and God’s involvement…it flows to all other areas of church and teachings as well. We see through the glass darkly, knowledge is received line upon line…it is sometimes messy and riddled with mistakes. So…that is part of the journey for us to build our faith knowing this is how God works, even with the church that claims to be His, even with the church that claims to have prophets and scripture….it still take personal faith to process it at some level.

    For me…I’m just gonna go with…oops…polygamy was a screw up…don’t believe in it…don’t need to…don’t ever want my daughters to fear they will be asked to believe in it in this life or the next. Simply…I reject it, and pick some other good things from the buffet.

    And in that approach to church…I find freedom to practice my religion as I see it, with eyes wide open, and with faith to know I will never know all.

    #326594
    Anonymous
    Guest

    There have been a few threads over the years that have discussed this article. Here’s one:

    http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4986

    Here’s a quote from another thread that touched on whether D&C 132/Polygamy originated with JS:

    On Own Now wrote:


    Well, JS was the author of polygamy, if not of Sec 132. Nauvoo-era polygamy was very different from Utah-era polygamy, but they were both polygamy. My opinion is that it is impossible to truly understand JS’s motives. It’s easy to assume sex, because that’s what most men would want out of it. But then there is that pesky problem with JS not having any children other than with Emma. There are plenty of other possible motives that are less uncomfortable. BY’s motivation was probably to follow the doctrine with exactness; thus resulting in the institutionalization of polygamy.

    132? Hard to tell, but it is certainly based on concepts from JS. That JS produced a revelation, and taught it privately, and had multiple wives was attested to by the Nauvoo Expositor. Is 132 that revelation? Possibly. Is it the original wording of that revelation? Maybe. I have my doubts, as I outlined earlier.

    But here is text from the June 7, 1844 Nauvoo Expositor:

    William Law: “I hereby certify that Hyrum Smith did, (in his office) read to me a certain written document, which he said was a revelation from God, he said that he was with Joseph when it was received. He afterwards gave me the document to read, and I took it to my house, and read it, and showed it to my wife, and returned it next day. The revelation (so called) authorized certain men to have more wives than one at a time, in this world and in the world to come. It said this was the law, and commanded Joseph to enter into the law.-And also that he should administer to others. Several other items were in the revelation, supporting the above doctrines.”

    Jane Law: “I certify that I read the revelation referred to in the above affidavit of my husband, it sustained in strong terms the doctrine of more wives that one at a time, in this world, and in the next, it authorized some to have to the number of ten, and set forth that those women who would not allow their husbands to have more wives than one should be under condemnation before God.”

    Austin Cowles: “In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revelation in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; 1st the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that “David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah.” This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counselor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo [ie, first counselor to Nauvoo Stake President, William Marks], inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws.”

    #326595
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I know Rock, but he relies on the RLDS for his sources that Joseph wasn’t a polygamist. While I know it is appealing, Rock’s just plain wrong on this topic. There’s simply too much evidence. Here’s my interview where Brian Hales refutes Rock’s points.

    https://youtu.be/BxFWMzde2TY

    #326596
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Joseph wasn’t a polygamist in the classic sense, because he didn’t live openly with multiple wives, but he married multiple women (or was sealed to multiple women while alive), so he was, technically, a polygamist. That much is indisputable, imo.

    Everything else is up for debate, and I am cool with that. People see what they want to believe, and I am cool with that, even as some of what people see truly bothers me.

    #326597
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Related to this discussion it is probably at least somewhat important we mention the section in Doctrine and Covenants on marriage that was removed before Section 132 was published. In the 1835 edition it was Section 101.

    http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835/259” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835/259

    I point this out just as a matter of historical fact – the church did at one time have canonized scripture which taught that marriage was between one man and one woman.

    #326598
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Yes, but 1835 Section 101 was written and presented as a policy not a revelation. It was placed in the end-matter of the D&C after a section titled “Appendix” and right before Section, you guessed it, 102, which was a declaration of the views of the Church on governments and laws. Not saying it wasn’t significant, but just saying that it wasn’t on the same level as the other sections, which were presented as revelations.

    Section 101 was adopted by the Church committee in charge of publishing the D&C, and importantly, it was adopted by the vote of those present, which did not include Joseph Smith, who was on Church business in the East. The presiding officers were Oliver Cowdery and Sydney Rigdon. See History of the Church, Vol 2, pg 243. Would JS have voted for it? I don’t know. But he didn’t vote, so I believe the content of the section is dubious. JS could have removed it later, but that likely would have served to fan the flames of anti-polygamy… It is clearly written as a policy document. First sentence: “According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies: therefore we believe, that all marriages of this church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, should be solemnized in a public meeting…”. Later portions talk about how marriages are to be recorded and how to deal with marriages prior to involvement with the Church. IMO, OC and SR, two staunch anti-polygamists, were trying to force JS’s hand away from Polygamy.

    #326599
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Agreed, OON. I’m not sure if the folks in 1835 viewed canonized scripture the same as we (or maybe just I) do now, and for all I know they didn’t really view the D&C as anything more than a collection of stuff. There are other sections which appear to be written more as policy, but they are, as you point out, presented as revelation. And it is important to note that Cowdery and Rigdon were not in favor of polygamy, and that Cowdery was very aware of at least the Alger affair. I think the general membership of the church at the time did not favor polygamy and very few practiced it.

    Just as an aside, we have books of policy now (the two General Handbooks and others) that are revered as scripture by some even though there is no ‘Thus saith the Lord” in the beginning.

    #326600
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I have cobbled together a list of polygyny justifications/explanations/reasons from JS or sources close to him.

    Quote:

    Polygyny Justifications of JS

    1. God commands it: “God said thou shalt not kill, at another time he said thou shalt utterly destroy…that which is wrong under one circumstance, may be and often is, right under another…Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is…although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.” RSR p. 441 “I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise. “TPJS p. 256, 324

    2. The ancient patriarchs practiced it (apparently without divine condemnation).

    3. To fashion a righteous generation on the eve of the Second Coming: “The Lord has revealed to me that it is his will that righteous men shall take righteous women, even a plurality of wives, that a righteous race may be sent forth upon the earth preparatory to the ushering in of the millennial reign of our Redeemer.” RSR p. 326, Jacob 2:24-30

    4. For “greater glory”: “The first commandment was to ‘Multiply’ and the Prophet taught us that Dominion & power in the great future would be commensurate with the number of ‘wives, children & friends’ that we inherit here and that our great mission to earth was to organize a nucleus of Heaven to take with us. To the increase of which there would be no end.”…”When the family organization was revealed from heaven- the patriarchal order of God, and Joseph began, on the right hand and the left, to add to his family, what a quaking there was in Israel.” In Sacred loneliness p. 10-11 “Joseph’s kingdom grew with the size of his family, and those bonded to that family would be exalted with him.” JS reportedly said “I know that I shall be saved in the Kingdom of God. I have the oath of God upon it and God cannot lie. All that he gives me I shall take with me for I have that authority and that power conferred upon me.” In Sacred Loneliness. The purpose was “to create a network of related wives, children, and kinsmen that would endure into the eternities…Like Abraham of old, Joseph yearned for familial plentitude.” RSR p 439-440, D & C 132:55 “If your [husband] and you should be alone by the side of such a king as Abraham or Solomon with all his queens and their numerous servants and waiting maids in courtly livery, would he not look like a mere rushlight by the side of such suns, or rather would he be seen at all! I should almost fear that your [husband] would be taken for a servant, and you for a waiting maid; or if they should, in the galaxy and splendor of 144,00 such suns as Solomon, happen to see you and your [husband] with a king’s coronet upon his head, they might think him short of wedding garments, or that the selfishness of his wife had stinted his growth to such an insignificant, crab-tree size! Besides, a Queen to him that has his hundreds of wives in eternity, with children as numberless as the stars of heaven, would receive intelligence, wealth, honour, children, and dominion, in some measure proportioned to the exaltations of her husband and king; while your [husband], not having much to look after besides you, could not demand the same measure of wealth, honour, and dominion, because he could use upon you and your little family but a small pittance of what pertains to one moving in a wider and far more exalted sphere. Your intelligence, and that of your children, could not rise higher than the intelligence of your husband. Consequently, you must see yourself and your husband, and your children, continually outstripped in intelligence by all others around you. Your social circle must consequently be very limited at home. And your offspring not be as numerous. The motive which would lead you to retain your husband exclusively to yourself, would contribute to make you comparatively unfruitful, and also vitiate the mental and bodily functions of your offspring, and sow the seeds of death and mortality in their systems… Hence I see the wisdom of God in not tolerating any such system [as monogamy] among the celestial worthies who are to be kings and queens unto God for ever…. God has determined to bestow His greatest blessings upon the liberal order, and only very stinted favours upon the narrow, contracted order [of monogamy] which you seem to desire. In the former order your children are all the lawful heirs of thrones and kingdoms, and in your favourite order they are only the heirs of servile inferiority.” Millennial Star 1853 Nelly & Abby

    5. Pre-mortal commitments: “Joseph said I was his, before I came here. He said all the Devils in Hell should never get me from him.” JS had been told to marry Mary, “or suffer condemnation- for I (Mary) was created for him before the foundation of the Earth was laid.” In Sacred Loneliness, also “thou made a covenant with one of thy kindred spirits to be thy guardian angel while here in mortality, also with two others, male and female spirits, that thou wouldst come and take a tabernacle through their lineage, and become one of their offspring. You also choose a kindred spirit whom you loved in the spirit world … to be your be head, stay, husband, and protector on the earth, and to exalt you in the eternal worlds. All these were arranged.” The Origin and Destiny of Women, John Taylor. Said Asael Smith, Grandfather of the Prophet, “I believe God hath created the persons for each other, and that Nature will find its own.” The Family of Joseph Smith p 16

    A major theme is that reasons 3, 4, & 5 are no longer consistent with our theology in the Modern Church. We have evolved out theology and polygamy is a relic of a previous time and belief system. The only reasons that still kinda fit are #2 Jacob and others were polygamists and #1 God commanded JS for what purpose we know not. (as an aside that has also been the church stance on the priesthood ban for the last 40ish years – God commanded it for what purpose we know not. [though the essay on Race and the Priesthood does go a long way to helping understand the context of the time and that it could have been cultural racism and limited understanding of gospel expansiveness.])

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