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In light of the recent shootings in Florida & Nevada, does the Church, on any level, have a plan to keep members safe during meetings in our buildings? Has it ever been discussed in your Stakes or Wards as to what we should do in the
event of a shooting? If it has in our area, I’m not aware of it.
I know that most schools & universities have a formal response procedures.
It is great to be open, accepting & welcoming but at the same time we seem to be very vulnerable too.
I’m just curious.
I remember for a while, there was a lot of theft going on during church at our building, so they’d have a couple men out on guard duty during meetings. They were unarmed, but you don’t really need weapons to deter common theft. It shouldn’t be hard to find armed members if the need arises. Most wards in the US have at least a few gun owners.
Beefster wrote:
It shouldn’t be hard to find armed members if the need arises. Most wards in the US have at least a few gun owners.
I’m not suggesting that we need armed guards. I’m suggesting that we probably need a plan, just in case.
My wife has friends in the Lutheran church & they told her that they developed a plan where after the services start, all
exits are locked & posted by men who open the doors for anyone who comes in late.
We have a formal protective program (including body guards) for the Prophet & other General Authorities even during a temple dedication.
I’m sure the same is true during General Conference. We had a shooting incident in 2012 at a Sikh Temple where six people were killed & 4
wounded. In 2005, there was a shooting at a church where 3 were killed & 4 wounded by a disgruntled member.
Maybe I’m paranoid. It seems better to have a plan & not need it than to be surprised when an incident happens.
Minyan Man wrote:My wife has friends in the Lutheran church & they told her that they developed a plan where after the services start, all exits are locked & posted by men who open the doors for anyone who comes in late.
Don’t know of any that lock the doors, but most churches tend to have greeters who physically block the inner doors during prayers and such, more to prevent someone just inattentively strolling in, banging the door open. Since they tend to be large men, (they also end up being the ones to fetch stacks of chairs when the pews fill up, hold the doors when it’s windy, help injured folks up the stairs, etc.) it’s also a de facto security detail. At least at the local Methodist church, I recognize one of them from tactical pistol competitions; I’d bet he’s carrying, and I know he’s better with it than the vast majority of armed guards.
I know that the Church has jumped through all the legal hoops, to ensure that it is illegal to conceal carry on Church grounds, even if you have a permit. Not that it helps much; If people are intent on causing trouble, they will anyways. And for protection, many of those who have gone to the trouble to get a permit, with no legal recourse, will carry on Church grounds anyways. Heck, if people know you’re carrying, you’re doing it wrong. If you’re flashing a gun for a reason that’s not worth dying for (let alone going to jail), you shouldn’t be carrying. Fortunately, we’ve got a few good things going for it. First, shootouts are relatively rare. Only 5% of non-domestic shootings in the US have happened inside a religious building. Most people are supersitious enough, to avoid religious persons and institutions when commiting a crime (even if they aren’t affiliated). We’re the safest we’ve ever been in the history of the world; Everyone has a camera/video recorder on them at all times, we have advanced forensic technology, we have the NSA recording far more than they probably should, every purchase tracked…
Also, why we like to believe the devils are all against us, the LDS Church is highly unlikely to be the target of a terrorist attack. We keep our missionaries out of areas that don’t want us. Our involvement in politics, including LGBT rights and abortion, is very passive and non-confrontational (there are much louder opponents out there). We do a lot of good, and are very careful to maintain positive relations.
The reason why it’s on everyone’s mind, is because mass shootings make the BEST news. Multi-day front headlines, the consumers gripped with fear, everyone being outraged over what wasn’t done to prevent it. It makes stacks. I found
official death statics for 2014violent fatalities in churches in America44 timesmore likely to die in a car crash on the way to Church, than to die by violence in a church (assuming 1/15 of the time you spend driving is going to and from the chapel). It’s a terrible thing to have happen, and my heart goes out to the victims. But starting a Church carpool initiative would do much more to prevent brutal deaths, than any hired security, metal detectors, or other gun-related policy.
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Side note: Have any of you heard about
the shootout at Living Water Fellowship in Kissimmee, Florida, on December 30th, 2014Quote:Shootouts are relatively rare
In pretty much most developed countries, but they seem common in the USA. But you’re right otherwise – schools seem to be the main target.
I did hear of a stake that was having some leaders having a pow-wow about how to handle the situation. It was only among the leaders and some were upset that the meeting topic even got out. I don’t think it is worth spending a lot of time planning for as it can actually cause more stress in people’s lives as they start worrying about that. We could save a TON more lives if people just stopped texting while driving. I think that has become as much of an issue as drunk driving.
We have a violent and disturbed individual here who comes from a neighboring ward and who has made threats in the past. He’s currently serving a jail sentence, but should probably be in a hospital. On a couple of occasions I’ve had to alert other brethren.
You’ll be interested to hear I intend to bring this up tomorrow in a meeting. There are members of my ward that are going to bring it up to the Stake. When we go to church we go with the expectation of being safe. We have fire alarms & extinguishers, plus software to protect church wifi connections.
All with the hope that it never has to be used. At the very least we should have a plan just in case something happens. For me, when it comes to the safety of children, statistics & probability analysis isn’t very comforting. Especially in an environment of a “missionary” church where we invite everyone to come & worship with us.
Minyan Man wrote:
I’m not suggesting that we need armed guards. I’m suggesting that we probably need a plan, just in case.My wife has friends in the Lutheran church & they told her that they developed a plan where after the services start, all
exits are locked & posted by men who open the doors for anyone who comes in late.
This is what our local Assembly of God church has done. With doors made of glass, I believe a determined intruder could still get in. However, It might serve as a deterrent and the ruckus he would likely make on entry might serve as an early warning. There is also the concept of “Security Theater” where a business takes steps to make patrons feel safe even though the steps do very little to actually increase safety.
This same church also has a child registration drop-off computer system. It gives you a ticket when you drop off your child (like a baggage claim, coat check, or valet) and that same ticket is to be presented when picking up the child or children. The system also has your phone numbers and authorized individuals should a claim ticket become lost. Compare this to our local LDS service where the children run free after church. I was present perhaps a year ago with panicked parents at the LDS meetinghouse when their child could not be found. After an exhaustive search (we were even checking the janitor closets) it was discovered that the child had gone home with an older sibling.
Question: Is the child placed in the church’s care? What duty does the church have not release the children except to an authorized individual?
Quote:Roy posted:
Question: Is the child placed in the church’s care? What duty does the church have not release the children except to an authorized individual?
It is questions like this that eventually will be settled when something goes wrong. Then it goes through the legal channels.
To avoid that, the church has to have a plan. We have plans for everything else it seems.
As a side note:recently a member of our ward needed help fixing a structural problem on her house. Because she didn’t have the finances to do the work, the Bishop as a Contractor in the ward to help her at no cost. He did the work & later was sued by the woman because she didn’t like the work. Life is interesting. Side note: 😯 😮 :wtf: :thumbdown: No good deed goes unpunished, I guess. This poor guy was just trying to do the right thing for someone in need. He works on his own & is far from “rich” in material possessions. He became reactivated 2 or 3 years ago. I haven’t had the guts to talk to him about it yet. I will when the time is
right.
My point in this discussion is: our actions not only have moral consequences but (lately) legal consequences too.
As individuals & as a church. Do we have to wait for another catastrophe before we make a plan? Tonight we have our annual
HP meeting before the Stake Conference. It will be interesting to see if a plan is offered or the problem will be discussed.
Another side note:When I retired, I went back to visit with my former boss. She asked what I was doing now & I said alot of genealogy. She said that her family used to be “Mormon” at the time of the migration to SLC. Her GG Grandfather helped build
the temple. One day when he was helping, he fell & died. The family went to church looking for compensation because they lost
the “breadwinner”. The church said “no” & they tried to sue. The courts said no. The family wound up moving back to the midwest
as a result. Never to be active again.
Sometimes it is our responsibility to say “no” when asked to do a charitable act.
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