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February 19, 2018 at 3:53 am #211911
Anonymous
GuestToday, I noticed a sort of pattern among the members in my ward that bothered me. Two patterns actually. Pattern 1: fixing people
Today, this was stuff like “she just needs to get a witness of the gospel” for an investigator who believes in this interestingly nebulous Buddhist-inspired concept of God. And for another guy coming from the Ba’hai faith, same sort of thing but with “correcting” his “incorrect” Ba’hai beliefs. (This particular guy has been taking the missionary lessons for months and just got engaged to his member GF)
I found this somewhat surprising coming from an elder who calls himself a Buddhist Mormon, because there’s clearly nothing wrong with keeping old beliefs that are compatible.
Pattern 2: standing up for arbitrariness
Family Proclamation lesson. The teacher told a story about one of his classes where some girl was railing on Christians for 10 minutes because of “bigotry” (which I will say is totally unfair unless you’re talking about the Westboro Baptist Church or similar), and because he was new, he was afraid to rock the boat and didn’t say anything. He was ashamed he didn’t stand up and bear his testimony, which IMO, would have not been the right time for it (though standing up to someone being unfair to a very broad category of religions was definitely warranted IMO) He seemed to imply that the right thing to do would be to say “I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman”, but I think that would have reinforced her point and been counterproductive. One class member shared a similar story where he stood up for his beliefs.
Given my experiences in the last couple of years, I can’t really stand by heterosexual-exclusive marriage- at least in the legal sphere. People have a right to believe what they want to and act accordingly, but they have no business banning something that does not physically harm other people.
February 19, 2018 at 5:24 pm #327003Anonymous
GuestYou noticed two things about humans who happened to be Mormon. We like to think we are special and peculiar (in a good way), but we are more natural than we can see.
That also is true of humans, generally.
One eternal round comes to mind.
February 20, 2018 at 11:04 pm #327004Anonymous
GuestBeefster wrote:
One class member shared a similar story where he stood up for his beliefs.
I’m wondering if there will be an opportunity some time for me to stand for my beliefs in church…and see who accepts me for that.
I believe same-sex marriage can be a good thing.
What would people in your ward think if you stood up for your beliefs? Or…is standing up for beliefs only OK if you stand up for the “right” beliefs?
February 21, 2018 at 3:02 am #327005Anonymous
GuestConsidering that church is an echo chamber at times, I think they really only mean the latter. Mormons aren’t challenged enough in their own beliefs. Or rather, critical thinking just isn’t really encouraged. If my testimony depends on immersing myself in the Mormon echo chamber and accepting what leaders say at face value, that’s a weaksauce belief system. If my beliefs topple when faced with any doubt or opposition, they must not be based on sound principles.
February 21, 2018 at 3:25 pm #327006Anonymous
Guest^ Is essentially how every group or community of people comes to behave eventually, because human nature. Even scientists disagree about things, as well as struggle to accept new evidence. It’s a human thing, and a human brain thing, to reinforce your belief system because it’s too much energy to expend to challenge it every minute of every day. As much as I sometimes want or crave it, church is a place to find meaning to go on when all else seems meaningless. I try my best to not ask others to do things they aren’t capable of, and that includes the organization of the church.
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February 21, 2018 at 5:19 pm #327007Anonymous
GuestBeefster wrote:
Considering that church is an echo chamber at times, I think they really only mean the latter.
Yesterday I went home teaching with a member of the stake high council. He shared a preview of his stake conference talk. He read from the scripture (1 Corinthians 2:14) that says the things of God are foolishness to the natural man and the world. He then went on to say that the world looks upon us and our religion as strange, weird, and foolish and we would think that too if we were looking at it with worldly eyes. Whenever we start to think that something or another in the church is foolish then we need to check ourselves for we are letting our natural man do the thinking.
The scripture is found in the bible. Therefore it could be used by any Christian offshoot religion with strange practices and beliefs to justify and defend those same things. The very fact that these things are seen as weird by outsiders actually confirms for the insiders that they are, in fact, from God. It also quashes dissent or differences of opinion from members of the group.
DancingCarrot wrote:
Is essentially how every group or community of people comes to behave eventually, because human nature.
Yes, I wish that there were more moderates to help bridge the gap between opposing sides.
February 21, 2018 at 5:48 pm #327008Anonymous
GuestRoy wrote:
Yes, I wish that there were more moderates to help bridge the gap between opposing sides.
I am more limited in my desire – I wish that both sides realized that there is a valid reason for moderates to exist… instead of playing leadership roulette to decide whether a witch hunt was in session or not. I suspect that if there was a place for moderates, people would filter in from the wood works.
On the plus side, when I “came to myself” and realized how much I had been relying on black/white thinking previously, it became easier to mentally supply a check and move on (I think – verdict is still out).
February 21, 2018 at 6:08 pm #327009Anonymous
GuestRoy wrote:
DancingCarrot wrote:
Is essentially how every group or community of people comes to behave eventually, because human nature.
Yes, I wish that there were more moderates to help bridge the gap between opposing sides.
I believe it’s moderates who change the world. Also, the more strongly a person believes in something, the less likely they are to be right.
February 22, 2018 at 4:04 am #327010Anonymous
GuestOld Timer wrote:
You noticed two things about humans who happened to be Mormon.We like to think we are special and peculiar (in a good way), but we are more natural than we can see.
That also is true of humans, generally.
One eternal round comes to mind.
It’s just tribalism, plus the regular old stupid human tendency to think that belonging requires fitting in, mingled with doctrinally supported exceptionalism.
Standing up for arbitrariness: These arbitrary things are in-group makers. They’re how Mormons distinguish themselves and identify each other. As far as I can tell, this is the only reason that most of them are important.
Fixing people: If you believe, consciously or not, that belonging to your tribe requires fitting in, and you care about the members of your tribe and think they can only be happy by belonging to it, then you
musttry to fix them so they fit in. You have to help them buy the right clothes, listen to the right music, say the right words, look down on the right people, idolize the right people, believe the right things, shop at the right stores, wear makeup the right way… I think I drifted at the end, there.
The only way to not be this way is to recognize it, work against it, be willing to call out bullsh*t that supports it, and take your tribe’s outcasts seriously. Kind of like Jesus did during his entire ministry.
(FWIW, “bullsh*t” is a technical term from philosophy that means “things communicated without reference to the truth or reality.”)
February 22, 2018 at 9:52 am #327011Anonymous
GuestAmyJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
Yes, I wish that there were more moderates to help bridge the gap between opposing sides.
I am more limited in my desire – I wish that both sides realized that there is a valid reason for moderates to exist… instead of playing leadership roulette to decide whether a witch hunt was in session or not. I suspect that if there was a place for moderates, people would filter in from the wood works.
On the plus side, when I “came to myself” and realized how much I had been relying on black/white thinking previously, it became easier to mentally supply a check and move on (I think – verdict is still out).
This. +1.
And a nod to Reuben
:thumbup: March 4, 2018 at 6:27 pm #327012Anonymous
GuestBeefster wrote:
Mormons aren’t challenged enough in their own beliefs. Or rather, critical thinking just isn’t really encouraged.If my testimony depends on immersing myself in the Mormon echo chamber and accepting what leaders say at face value, that’s a weaksauce belief system. If my beliefs topple when faced with any doubt or opposition, they must not be based on sound principles.
It’s the culture, so we have to accept it so long as we want to be part of that culture. But you can speak up on things that are on the fringes — where personal judgment is allowed — there are topics like that. I have done it a million times now, and normally get complements from others who are thinking the same thing but just afraid to speak up…here they are:
a) judgmentalism – you can rip Mormon judgmentalism to shreds and not get censured, because it’s biblical.
b) callings — i have had success in commenting on the volunteer status of Mormons, and how giving choice and considering desires for places to serve is good for volunteers and the church
c) correcting wrong assumptions. People laughed at someone who wanted to have more guitar in church! I pulled out the handbook that indicated stringed instruments, such as guitar, are appropriate provided the music is reverent. Major revelation for people.
d) I once went on about the grind of home teaching — that the agency of the families isn’t considered in church measurement of success, and that is demotivating — is all I have to look forward to, is nothing but failure as a home teaching in our reporting system because my families don’t want to see me? Major support from the quorum on that one.
I have done a lot more than this in the past, just can’t remember it, but you’d be amazed at how speaking up about fringe topics that you suspect are on the minds of so many people, can net you respect from the people who are there. Happens to me rather frequently.
March 4, 2018 at 7:02 pm #327013Anonymous
GuestSilentDawning wrote:
I have done a lot more than this in the past, just can’t remember it, but you’d be amazed at how speaking up about fringe topics that you suspect are on the minds of so many people, can net you respect from the people who are there. Happens to me rather frequently.
I have had very similar experiences, and likewise pretty frequently.
March 4, 2018 at 9:08 pm #327014Anonymous
GuestQuote:Mormons aren’t challenged enough in their own beliefs. Or rather, critical thinking just isn’t really encouraged.
Sometimes we are, but often by bigoted, ill informed outsiders who reinforce our siege mentality.
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