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There is an article in Deseret News about the new Young Women camp manual. Here is a quote from Bonnie Oscarson about “feeling the Spirit” and emotion that I like: Quote:“Sometimes young women — especially those who are just learning to respond to the Spirit — might think, ‘everybody else is crying, why am I not crying? I must not be feeling the Spirit,’” Sister Oscarson said. “People can feel the Spirit working in their lives and everybody reacts differently to it. Stick with the scriptures, the basic doctrines of Christ and of the gospel, and choose appropriate activities that invite the Spirit, but which don’t try to manipulate emotions.”
I think the appeal to emotion is way overplayed in the church, not just among YW. Post FC I have come to recognize that “good feelings” have nothing to do with the Spirit.
Even during my (brief) “swallow everything that was told”-period, I couldn’t really buy the whole “good feeling” = “The Spirit”. Because, well… I’m “hypersensitive” emotionally. I’ve been diagnosed with BPD, even (although I’d argue I’m 60+% “cured”), so I rarely trust my feelings very much. In DBT (the “go-to” therapy form for BPD), we learn to use our so called “wise mind”. Instead of relying only on emotion in a given moment, we try to conciously “plug in” our rational thinking as well, so that we can make better decisions. I don’t think I can effectively learn how to distinguish The Sprit from my emotions and/or “wise mind”. But I don’t think it matters. Just like I don’t think it matters for me to be able to distinguish blessings from luck/results of my own effort/randomness/etc. I still believe in The Spirit and blessings, though.
The quote is nice. I think it’s fine if people think of good feelings = the spirit, but it’s problematic if that “norm” leads to some people feeling like they’re being “left out” / “doing something wrong” / etc.
Love it. Trek is a good place to begin. And Girls Camp require testimony meeting. Quote:“… but which don’t try to manipulate emotions.”
But how can you really tell? There is so much in Church (and elsewhere, to be fair) that manipulates the emotions.
dande48 wrote:
Quote:“… but which don’t try to manipulate emotions.”
But how can you really tell? There is so much in Church (and elsewhere, to be fair) that manipulates the emotions.
I agree that it’s often difficult to tell when we’re being manipulated by emotion. It’s much easier to see from a third person point of view as long as the third person is not subjecting himself/herself to the manipulation. I think I am personally pretty adept at this post FC, especially since to some extent I see myself as more of an observer at church (which sometimes makes me laugh and sometimes makes me cry). And I think that might have been part of Oscarson’s point – don’t try to do it. I see people who purposely do it, and – please understand I don’t mean to be sexist here – it seems to happen more with women than men (especially in the YW setting). Note that I do see it happen with men as well, I’m not saying it’s exclusively a female thing (our male GD teacher is fairly adept at it). That’s why I think the part of Oscarson’s statement about sticking to the doctrine is important, and more important because it comes from a General Officer of the church. Think Saturday’s Warrior here – lots of emotion, little doctrine.
It’s a great quote, and I am glad she said it explicitly. Crying shouldn’t be seen automatically as a manifestation of the spirit. It can be faked and manipulated too easily. Quote:our male GD teacher is fairly adept at it
One of my former Bishops can cry at the drop of the hat. Especially when he is at the podium. The Jekyll/Hyde side of him is a piece of work. Off the podium he is condescending, malicious, nasty. I am certain it was the crying that got him the calling.
What makes any religious leaders claims, or scriptural claims, or any gospel or doctrinal appeals valid? The quote feels to me, like she’s grouping many types of emotions as evidence of the “Spirit”, using it to confirm the truthfulness of the scriptures, the gospel, the Church. She tells us to be careful of those situations which manipulate emotions (not us!). Any emotional response that supports what we preach is the Spirit testifying of truth, and the rest is manipulation. I am confident Sister Oscarson has nothing but the best and noblest intentions, but that whole quote
feltmanipulative to me. Maybe I’m just too spiritually “on guard”, and borderline paranoid. I have been lied to and manipulated both in and out of the Church. The quote feels like a set up, where everything confirms the “gospel” (as they preach it), and anyone who disagrees is decieved or of the devil. mom3 wrote:
Quote:our male GD teacher is fairly adept at it
One of my former Bishops can cry at the drop of the hat. Especially when he is at the podium. The Jekyll/Hyde side of him is a piece of work. Off the podium he is condescending, malicious, nasty. I am certain it was the crying that got him the calling.
Probably. I’ve seen this too. It should be noted that turning on emotions on tap is a sociopathic trait.
dande48 wrote:
What makes any religious leaders claims, or scriptural claims, or any gospel or doctrinal appeals valid? The quote feels to me, like she’s grouping many types of emotions as evidence of the “Spirit”, using it to confirm the truthfulness of the scriptures, the gospel, the Church. She tells us to be careful of those situations which manipulate emotions (not us!). Any emotional response that supports what we preach is the Spirit testifying of truth, and the rest is manipulation.I am confident Sister Oscarson has nothing but the best and noblest intentions, but that whole quote
feltmanipulative to me. Maybe I’m just too spiritually “on guard”, and borderline paranoid. I have been lied to and manipulated both in and out of the Church. The quote feels like a set up, where everything confirms the “gospel” (as they preach it), and anyone who disagrees is decieved or of the devil.
I think she was saying the exact opposite of this. I think her point was to not manipulate at all. If we do stick to scripture and “pure” doctrine and let the real Spirit work, people will “know” for the truth for themselves. I have a testimony of Jesus Christ and the atonement, but it has nothing to do with emotion or feeling, the testimony is just there. I think it interesting that when asked a question about what the Spirit feels like in their “Face-to-Face”, Eyring and Holland didn’t mention emotion at all, what they talked about was peace, and they were frank about their own struggles with the same topic. Honestly peace is hard for me to experience in a group setting of any kind, particularly F&TM. But a feeling of peace is also not what gives me my testimony – I feel peace while walking the dog in the park, while sitting quietly and pondering anything (or nothing at all), and sometimes while praying – it might be the Spirit, but it might just be “a peaceful, easy feeling.” I don’t know what makes religious claims valid, but I know it’s not emotion.
Quote:(not us!)
I don’t think Oscarson was excusing us, I think she was accusing us and calling us to repentance (meaning change).
mom3 wrote:
Quote:our male GD teacher is fairly adept at it
One of my former Bishops can cry at the drop of the hat. Especially when he is at the podium. The Jekyll/Hyde side of him is a piece of work. Off the podium he is condescending, malicious, nasty. I am certain it was the crying that got him the calling.
Must be the twin of the guy in my ward. Seriously.
My take on the new camp guide. I liked that they are giving greater leadership roles to youth leaders.
I love that they strongly discourage pranks and other somewhat mean things that may have been traditions in some areas.
I am conflicted about the elimination of certification.
Pro – as they mentioned the certifications might not be practical in every area of the world.
Con – without the certifications (first aid, wilderness survival etc.) what practical skills will the YW be learning from camp?
This brings me to my final point. Once they strip out the certifications, what is left besides fun craft activities and emotionally manipulative activities?
However, I celebrate that the leadership is recognizing that there are certain emotionally manipulative activities that may test false positive for the spirit. I also celebrate that the leadership is asking that spiritual experiences not be forced at camp.
I, too, am troubled a bit by the elimination of certifications. I asked DW about her thoughts since she is camp director. She’s all in favor because most girls didn’t want to do it anyway and it takes a lot of time on behalf YW leaders. She also pointed out the change in Scouting which no longer requires YM 14+ to participate in those kinds of activities. I likewise asked the question about what they do at camp now, and she answered it’s supposed to be much more “spiritually” based, which does open it up to emotional manipulation. Perhaps that is the root of Oscarson’s comment.
I should note that in my state there are very strict rules about camp, and the certification stuff was all done before the beginning of camp anyway because actual camp is only 3 days to avoid many legal requirements for a longer camp.
I have wrestled with camp since I was a girl. I am a sports girl and family camping girl, but not girls camp camping. I used to complain to my mom all the time about it, but she pointed out something to me. She said getting away can be very healing for some people. Especially teenagers. As a kid we had a cool, church owned camp. A lot of our time was spent building the camp. It was rugged, filthy, primitive but it did provide a unique outlet.
When I was an adult leader, I really dug my heals in. Certification seemed unnecessary. At least the camp manual version. I am all about first aid, outdoor safety, even star gazing. But after that – count me out.
When I was the ward YW President I wanted the girls to get away from life at home. Not away from family, but away from all the typical high school girl crap. I insisted on campsite’s next to the beach. I threw out the manual. Everyone got a patch. The week(we did a full week) was service projects, nature hikes, campfire time, secret sisters and uplifting stories.
I don’t know if it was the right answer or not, but we had one of the closest YW groups I had ever seen. They really had each other’s backs. I like to think that camp was a part of it.
mom3 wrote:
I threw out the manual.
Quote:the code is more what you’d call “guidelines” than actual rules.
Thankfully the new camp guide gives explicit permission for adaptation. The camp guide is to be a springboard – not a straitjacket!
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