Navigating from the Dark Night

I also have very little time right now, as my semester ends next week, but I too want to welcome you. I am sure you will get some excellent input.

My husband no longer wants to pay a full 10% of income since he doesn’t think the church is true anymore (I’m a Stay at home mom who only makes a little money here and there). We’re very united in finances usually and want to make a joint decision. It terrifies me to no longer have a recommend despite not believing anymore. And I talked to my husband about only paying on surplus and he doesn’t want to do that either. I told him if we stay semi-active we should still pay some and he agreed and said maybe we could do a large fast-offering donation and give to charities. How do we navigate the tithing interview though? If we tell the Bishop we’re only paying a partial tithe I don’t want him to ask why. I don’t want to divulge that I no longer have a literal belief in the church. We are introverts and my husband has some anxiety.

For what it is worth, tithing as a principle is between you and God – so it is up to you and your husband to mull over/ask for revelation on how to pay tithing to God in your situation. God may accept your “tithing” as going to fast offerings and giving to charities. As representatives of the church, they can ask the question in “Yes/No” format – and you can translate what that means in your situation. You do not need to provide explanations for your translation because it is between you, your husband, and God.

Also how in the world do I raise my children? They are still young and the oldest is still a few years from baptism age. I feel like a hypocrite expecting them to obey church standards when I don’t believe in the church literally. Also I’m not sure if I want my sons to go on missions if it’s not the one true church.

Here is the principle that has helped me the most here:

I (and my spouse) am not expected as a parent to be everything/teach everything to my children.

That means that I am not expected to teach every point of doctrine – I can’t teach what I don’t know/understand. I can teach what I believe and why I believe it – and I can be mindful of focusing on the common ground as I transition my beliefs. Yes, I help set the foundation through family culture and the environment I set up for my children. But the children are agents of themselves from a young age. Some church standards are good practices that can be applied outside the church. Charity, Gratitude, Cleanliness, and a host of other principles can be taught from multiple positions. Yes, others such as primary teachers will teach things you can’t – which is both good and bad. There are several threads on this site about baptism in faith transition, raising children during a faith transition, and how to present alternatives and historical perspectives. It can be done. Just take a deep breath, focus on what you can and should teach your children (start with manners and respect at church if that’s common ground), and know that you got this:)

Others have mentioned making sure that if you are in the middle of a faith transition, it is a good idea to expand your social networks so that you are not dependent solely on the church for social needs as well as religious/spiritual needs.

I focus on the basics what I am comfortable with. We have prayer because it is a good habit to be grateful for the things we have. We go to church because there are good lessons there and I am not ready to give it up [but we take more Sundays away from church and “trade up” as best as we can]. I focus on teaching reverence and basically a form of meditation during the Sacrament. What I can’t teach about God/the Atonement, my husband can. In any case, it is most important to teach children that there are multiple perspectives out there, and how to handle conflicting views with respect.

Thank you so much everyone for your support. It’s so nice to know I’m not alone. Going through all this feels very isolating. I think I may still be in a denial stage that this is all happening. My heart and my mind tell me different things, but I know it can’t go back to the way it was.

AmyJ thank you. I think my husband and I are definitely going to have to mull over the tithing thing. I need to find a way to feel honest but also avoid awkwardness (if possible). Thanks for your perspective on raising children. It’s so hard because I feel like the church sees things from black and white. I think my husband would almost rather be done because it sounds easier to him with kids but I still really want to stay in some capacity and make it work. He’s open to that especially since both our families are very much in it. Expanding our network sounds like a great idea. I also appreciate what you said about learning good lessons like reverence from church.

Dande48 I get how those beginning questions would be hard to answer. It seems difficult navigating being true to yourself and not rocking the boat sometimes. I’m glad you found what works for you. I like your perspective of making others places temples- places to meditate and find spirituality. We still have about a year left before our recommends expire and to the end of the year to figure out tithing so I imagine we have a lot of time to mull things over. There’s so much to think about.

How do we navigate the tithing interview though?

If it is not important to you to have a TR you could just not go. This leaves your bishop in a situation where he has to make an educated guess as to your tithing status.

I do not pay tithing. DW is a SAHM that does earn some small money through internet transcription. She pays tithing on her income (she actually deducts business expenses like the internet connection from her titheable total [and no we did not have an internet connection before she started]).

For our tithing settlement interview I go into meet with the bishop first with my family waiting outside. I very quickly let the bishop know that I am not currently a full tithe payer but that I support my wife and children in the payment of their tithes. DW knows the situation, the children do not. In order to not confuse or worry the children, I am making my tithing declaration separate from the rest of my family. The bishop may press somewhat but really time is on your side. There is a schedule to keep and a lobby full of people waiting.

In this or other bishops interviews I find it helpful to not divulge too much information – especially any that might make him defensive by attacking or criticizing the church or challenging the bishops authority. I personally had a tragedy in my family that I had felt could not happen to me in part because I was paying a faithful tithe. Discussion of how my personal expectations surrounding tithing were not accurate and how the resulting crumbling of those expectations has made extending trust/faith more difficult for me – has proven to be a fairly safe topic. It is relatable and does not blame the church.

The bishop will likely employ a number of arguments to convince/commit you to pay tithing. Some of these arguments may be fundamentally flawed. One example, my bishop said that tithing is perhaps the only commandment where an individual can be in 100% mathematically perfect compliance. the idea of being “perfect” in some aspect of his relationship with God seemed to be important to him. I did not argue with him or push back at all on his statement. I smile and nod to acknowledge his reasoning and keep any disagreement I may have to myself.

I believe that the concepts embodied in the following statements may prove helpful. I accept that my faith is not strong enough to pay tithing at this time. I am still a work in progress and I could see my faith growing in the future. I thank the bishop for his concern and his invitation to pay tithing. I am not ready to make a commitment at this time but I am working on my faith and will let him know when I am ready.

Lastly, be prepared that the bishop may ask for your husband to surrender his TR because of not paying a full tithe. There should be no problem with you continuing to hold a TR by paying tithing on your “little money here and there”.

Again welcome – you are not alone!

Also how in the world do I raise my children?

If only there was an answer to that question…

I feel like a hypocrite expecting them to obey church standards when I don’t believe in the church literally.

I try to separate out behaviors from beliefs. I’d like for my kids to follow church standards but it doesn’t matter to me whether they believe in everything the church teaches. How different is a belief that god told the prophet to tell me to do something vs. a belief that I’m taking a more humanist approach when the end product produces more or less the same behaviors?

I’d only see it as hypocritical if I expected them to behave in ways I wouldn’t behave.

Also I’m not sure if I want my sons to go on missions if it’s not the one true church.

I also struggle with whether I want my kids attending seminary. I think sleep would benefit them more. I’m not sure how I feel about the mission. By the time they are mission age they are old enough to make their own decisions (even though 18 seems crazy young to me now). I have a different perspective on missions. I was the only member of my family to join the church and my family was very upset when I decided to serve a mission but it was what felt called to do at the time, so I went. I understood my family’s concerns and that their reaction was coming from a place of love and concern for me, but at the time it was something I had to do. It’s their path, they’ll learn lessons no matter which direction they end up taking… even if we’re the ones paying for that leg of their journey [grumble] [grumble] [grumble]

Thank you for your post. I get that tithing is between me and God I just think that if we go from being full 10% (net) tithing payers to only paying like $1,000 for the year the Bishop would be rather skeptical and my high-guilt conscience would get the best of me and I’d word vomit my feelings everywhere. So I definitely need to go in with a plan, but we have time to figure that out.

Several people have said that you can pay online discretely to avoid this issue. Of course, that requires that the bishop remember the amounts that you mentioned last year and this year and confronted you on it. Leadership roulette at its best.

I’d only see it as hypocritical if I expected them to behave in ways I wouldn’t behave.

This is some good food for thought. I think I still want to follow most of the church teachings, but be a little more lax.

The great thing about becoming more unorthodox is that after the soul-searching, you start making choices based on the “Spirit” of the law that resonates within you rather than checking off a random checkbox.

I am not sure if it is because you become a boat wreckage survivor clinging to principles that “hold you above water” as it were, or if you wind up figuring out that you have nothing else to lose to follow your heart as it were.

I have a different perspective on missions. I was the only member of my family to join the church and my family was very upset when I decided to serve a mission but it was what felt called to do at the time, so I went.

I’m glad you had a good experience. I’m probably over thinking things. It’s crazy though to go from having my entire life rules and thinking set up to deciding for myself what is best.

One of our members calls it becoming an “Adult of God” which has given me much food for thought.

If you are interested, I wrote the following back in 2008, describing why I have never experienced a dark night of separation:

“The Bright Night of My Soul” (https://www.mormonmatters.org/the-bright-night-of-my-soul/)