The whens, wheres, and whys of speaking up at church

I think you’re right, that most people go to Church not to improve, but to receive comfort and certainty. There’s also another aspect to the Abrahamic God, that most Judeo-Christian-Muslims don’t talk about. Jehovah is a God of War.

The main themes behind the Abrahamic religions are not about peace, as most people would like to believe. It’s about the fight between good and evil, and the ultimate triumph of good. It’s about the fight itself, not what is being fought for. Half of the appeal of Christianity is in sensationalism. Evil beats down on good. They scourge the Christ, and place on his head a crown of thorns, before nailing him to a wooden cross as he dies an excruciatingly painful death. And then Christ slays the devil, conquers death, and redeems all mankind from the bonds of death. God commands the ultimate sacrifice from every man, to cling to the things they believe to be true, even unto death. Every sacrifice, every pain and suffering of the Saints for their beliefs is part of the war against “wickedness”, and they will rise triumphant, and squash Babylon under their heel!

If you want peace, growth, and rational discourse, best join one of the peaceful religions, like Buddhism or Jainism. But as Christ put it,

“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.”

Should the church be a place where we create room at the table for people that unabashedly hold differing beliefs and feel free to share them, or should church be a sanctuary where beliefs go unchallenged, a place to enjoy respite from the worldly “thems?”

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What does it mean to belong? To share who you are, even if it challenges the status quo? To show up and be tolerated?

A good parallel I think, is the affiliation many people take with Sports teams. They want to belong to something bigger. They take the successes and failings of the team as personal successes and failings. If the team does well, they are proud. When the team fails, they get defensive, argumentative, and angry. They invest in the team, by buying sports apparel and overpriced tickets. If a player on the team leaves, and joins another team (even if they are swell person and a skilled player), it is considered absolute treason. It’s not the people that make the team “good”; it’s the team itself. And if your team is different than mine, you are delusional and just plain wrong. Disagree? You can go **** **** **** **** **** you **** **** ****.

The main difference here, between let’s say “The Red Sox” and the “LDS Church”, is that the “LDS Church” and all of their members believe everyone’s eternal salvation and happiness depends on them being right. The stakes are high! You belong to the Church of God, or the Church of Satan. There is no middle ground. Those who try to be fence sitters are an annoyance to God, and He will reject them. Fight, fight, fight! Army of God! Be steadfast in your testimony! Defend yourself against the arrows of the Adversary! Put on the armor of God! Wield the sword of truth! Deserters be damned! Endure to the end!

…and this mentality, as a whole, is why the world (not just the Church) is as messed up as it is. What will happen when there is no one left to fight? Thankfully, we live in a nation with wonderful religious diversity. When people are so diverse, they generally get along. It’s tough to feel rejected by the Church for holding different beliefs, but if there were only one religious belief holding sway over a nation, people will have their throat slit over apostasy (looking at you, Brigham Young). Two primary religions in a nation always lead to civil war. But when there are many, people get along pretty well. Same within the Church; where diversity of opinion is prevalent, people mostly get along. Where there is conformity, there is oppression against the outliers. If you want to express your differing beliefs, you need to be tactful, and have much better reasons than “wanting to be accepted”.

Old Timer often remarks he participates in group activities with the sole focus of serving others/making the experience better for others – and that he has more meaningful experiences because of this focus.

It’s also sobering when you begin to realize that the best way to serve others may be to keep your mouth shut or simply find somewhere else to be.

I am reminded that the standard mold is an illusion projected by superficial judgement and being hung up on what traditionally (theoretically) worked – so that the whole situation is not cut and dry.

Too true. It’s a shame we don’t let our hair down more at church and just be, break through imagined living and just live.

I have the steadfast (if misguided – still thinking that one out) illusion that what I say has meaning and unique insights that others need/want. So for me, it isn’t a question of whether I will speak up, but more a matter of “Can I respectfully say what I feel needs to be said in a way that is thought-provoking and clearly conveys what I am trying to say?”

Yes. That’s where I was going when I said I believe some people have that talent, others do not. I do not think quickly on my feet. If you ask me a question at the beginning of Sunday school I will only want to make a comment on that question towards the end, long after the subject has changed a dozen times over.

But what if “wanting to be accepted” is the better alternative to “burn this puppy to the ground.” 😈

If I really thought about it, which I’m not inclined to do, I’d say that the main reason I’d want to speak up would be to cut through the boredom and predictability of our meetings.

Boredom… the greatest motivator of the human race.

“All of humanity’s problems stem from man’s inability to sit quietly in a room alone.”

I try to limit my comments in the class setting to advocating for more charity and less judgment for all. I do get the feeling that my comments are not always appreciated. Similar to relationships, you can only have so many emotional withdrawals before your comments begin to feel grating. People go to church to revel in uniformity of belief and take comfort in certainty. They really do not want or appreciate me there providing counter examples.

And if your team is different than mine, you are delusional and just plain wrong.

My most recent discussion where I was made aware that my perspective was not appreciated went something like this.

Light bantering conversation prior to lesson in EQ.

EQ member: “JW’s are weird and crazy.”

Me: “I met with the JW’s for several months and their beliefs are not that dissimilar to ours.”

EQ member: “No way – they believe that only 144k will be saved.”

Me: “I understand that they get that from a scripture in the bible. I think of it as their version of the celestial kingdom. Only 144,000 become heavenly administrators but an unlimited number can enjoy the paradisiacal earth – AKA terrestrial glory.”

EQ member: “But they have more than 144k members. Why go to a church that has such a small chance of going to the top?”

Me: “We have the second anointing temple ordinance that is supposed to make your calling and election made sure and it is only offered to a tiny fraction of the membership. That does not sound terribly different to me.”

awkward silence

EQP: “On that note, lets begin. Who read the lesson?”

I feel like I spent a boat load of credibility in that conversation. Essentially what was happening was puffery – where we talk in glowing teams about our own team and talk in disparaging terms about other teams. A person may even disparage other teams as a way to gain favor and prove loyalty to the group. Unfortunately, I believe that I successfully managed to call into question my loyalty and not much else.

What lessons to be derived from this episode? 1) Refrain from having contrary discussions in public. Most individuals are more reasonable in one on one conversations. 2) Advocating less judgment for individuals is more acceptable. Advocating less judgment for competing religious organizations is less acceptable. 3) Bringing up weird LDS practices in any context that makes them sound weird is less acceptable.

In retrospect I should have found a way to politely exit the conversation with something like, “religious beliefs always sound weird to everyone except the believer.”

In that situation, I would have probably said something like this after the yelling started…

“I am thankful that we have modern technology which makes some of these conflicts of time and resources easier to resolve by email or by Skype. I am also thankful for the gift of the Holy Ghost that helps me decide the best use of the resources and talents I have in terms of serving my family, fulfilling my career obligations, and serving in the church.”

However, it might not have helped the situation any better than any other choice available.

I’m not sure how I will act in priesthood-meetings and such, but I’ll try my hardest to “speak up” with respect to the orthodoxy. A few days ago someone posted a long quote from RMN in our wards facebook group. He quoted some passage in the Book of Mormon where Jesus says “those who do not follow my commandments will never come to heaven” or something like that. I didn’t read RMNs speech or listen to it, but I replied anyway.

I pointed out that there are “contradicting” verses in the Bible, in Romans, for example. But I ALSO pointed out that the Bible has some parables which pretty clearly says “some people do not go to heaven”, and I finished it all with saying “I’m not saying RMN is wrong, and I don’t have any “answers” on this “issue”. I just want to “raise a thought” ”

I think that would be my approach on things such as this. Because in reality, I try to “conform” to the group. I try to be “agreeable” because I’m afraid of conflict … but simply saying nothing, feels like it’ll do little benefit in the long run. The people who will dislike me for having differing opinions are probably not my friends anyway. If me “saying what I think” leads to “disciplinary action” (“warnings”) I’d have to reconsider my approach, but… Eh.

I haven’t been to church for months (95% sure I’m going tomorrow though, for the first time in a long time)… But from what I remember, I found the priesthood meetings where people “disagreed” to be more interesting than when everyone just sat there and nodded for 45 min. Our quorum president did try his best to make people “say what they think”, but I think many people have a hard time saying what they think. The Church is definitely “authoritarian” in many ways (which is both a good and bad thing), which probably encourages “yes-sir” behaviour and discourages discussion.

The problem with “yes-sir”-behaviour on a large scale is that we’ll never develop as a group. We’ll just stick to our old ways, because everyone is too afraid of “getting kicked out”. On doctrinal issues this might be a bit complex, but the behaviour seems to exist even when it comes to non-doctrinal things. I remember some discussion regarding home-teaching (or whatever it’s called nowadays). Some people had some very good ideas on how to make the system better (not “as a whole” but rather how we did things locally), but there was a lot of conservatism in the group as well. But I guess that’s how every group works. There’s the progressive people and there’s the conservative people. Everyone is needed in the greater scheme of things, because the conservative person and the progressive person complements each other. At least… if they are able to “negotiate”, or if there are people “in the middle” who can negotiate.

Feels like I de-railed a lot now but… Eh. It’s a tough topic. I’m more inclined to stay silent than to say anything in class situations, but I’ll try my best to open my mouth more often… Because I do think I have good things to say. But I guess that’s easy for me to say now, perhaps not so easy to do tomorrow… 😆

The women here tend to do more cooking, socializing, craft activities etc. Some of them even go on cruises together.