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Discussion carried over from a different thread: Quote:
AmyJ: C) Relief Society: We shared a lesson/group discussion on “Seek to Understand Before Seeking to be Understood” also “Not Judging”. NOTE: Kuddos to the teacher for including the elephant story cartoon in her lesson.
DarkJedi: Just curious, it was first Sunday. No council meeting in RS? My wife said our ward had a lesson/discussion also. AmyJ: I guess our R.S. didn’t have specific needs to counsel over, so we had a discussion on a core ministering topic we set up in April. DarkJedi: I guess I didn’t really understand that councils were an option. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not the council or curriculum police (far from it), it was just my understanding councils were what we do first Sunday without any other option. Looking at the curriculum, I don’t see it any different than that. I wonder how long it will take for a “crack down” from above? FWIW, I think the councils were the biggest concern for many, including the top leadership. (And I’m sorry if I’m derailing.) DarkJedi: I was also speaking with an acquaintance in another ward this evening and he happened to mention they also did not have a council on Sunday (they had a ministering lesson). Do I smell a resistance?
We’re 6 councils into the new program I can’t say whether we’ve had a “council.” Maybe because old habits die hard or we genuinely don’t know what it means to council but so far on 1st Sunday we’ve had: 1) A lesson talking about the change to holding council on 1st Sundays.
2) A lesson on how to do genealogy on family search.
3) Two lessons on how to minister (home teaching lesson, plus some reading from recent general conference talks).
4) Two sessions that were more council-like.
I don’t think anyone was going rogue or putting up intended resistance. I think we just don’t know how to council, so we fall back on doing the familiar lessons/lectures.We called them councils and think that they are councils but they could best be described as lessons.
Now that I’ve transitioned away from orthodoxy it’s also hard for me to get a feel for what we should discuss during a council. Two of the six councils felt close to what I’d call a council and both of those meetings had a topic that didn’t interest me. Topics that focused less on the needs of the individual and almost entirely on the needs of the church. Maybe that’s a habit as well? Falling back on what is good for the organization being good for the individual. Talking about getting key indicator metrics up. I found that those topics were not engaging.
I also wondered why there is no mechanism for people to suggest ideas for what they wanted to talk about. It’s probably easier to get people involved in a discussion that they wanted to have than it is to get people interested in a topic you want them to talk about, but that’s the PH hour for you. Sounds like a subject that should get brought up in council… if we can ever get off the assigned lesson topic long enough to interject those points.
I am not sure sometimes. One of our sisters put together a branch face book group as a means to handle identifying and addressing physical item needs.
PROS:
A space to provide ward ministering requests.
CONS:
No one spoke up for the items she had, so she wound up offering me the children’s shoes. Since my youngest will grow into her youngest daughter’s clothes for the next year or so, we already have the connection of giver/acceptee set up. Her face book group setup might be overkill in the current situation.
SIDE NOTE:
I emailed our R.S. Presidency, our new EQP, and our Branch President regarding the people who already minister to us, and whom we could minister to. The email was sent in hopes that my husband and I would be paired together to serve most effectively in our ministering efforts. I got feedback from the R.S. Presidency (mostly “Thank you – but we are waiting on the brethren”) and nothing from the EQP and Branch President.
My Sister Ministers changed to 2 nice sisters (who don’t have a history of ministering directly to my family and whom I don’t think I can relate to very well). To be honest, I am not sure I want to give them space in my life – not because they aren’t great people (they are), but because my experiences with them don’t give me confidence that I want them to be more involved in my life. They are not the sisters I will go to when my daughter is being confrontational towards me and I need guidance in how to survive/handle it better. Previously, I used to be more proactive telling HT/VT’s when I had time available for them to visit, and befriend me. This time, I think I will continue to go to the people who minister to my family in my life (keeping respectful boundaries) and let the new sisters contact me… if true to form, eventually.
On the plus side, 2 of the brethren who minister to my family were partnered together and assigned to minister us. Their wives already do unofficially, so we are well taken care of (administration peeves aside).
Following Nibbler’s 6 month plan. Jan. with the old HPGL we had a council and discussed what we wanted to do for lessons, activities, service, etc. It was good, actually.
Feb. HPGL was out of town, we had a lesson by one of his assistants from a GC talk (we went around the room and read the talk like in fourth grade, and every 2 or 3 paragraphs the “teacher” would make a comment).
March I was out of our ward I don’t know what happened there but the ward I was in had a council.
April GC, no council
May we had a new EQP and we had a council about what we wanted to do for lessons, activities, service, etc. It was better the first time.
June we had a lesson on family history (so not even a GC talk).
My wife tells me they’ve only had 2 councils in RS, one of which was last month but not first Sunday (it was Mother’s Day, most of which was taken up by their brunch buffet and the reasoning was that Primary and YW people then got to participate in the council).
I think you might be right, Nibbler, in that the majority of people don’t even know what a council is much less how to do one. Before being on HC I can say I didn’t know much about them either although I did know that it wasn’t just another word for lesson (meeting was probably a closer synonym and they are indeed meetings).
So more training is probably in order. On the other hand, the ministering training I recently attended was for all EQPresidencies, RSPresidencies, bishoprics, and high council. My ward was represented by the second councilor in the EQP and the RSP, no other presidents/counselors and no bishopric. And I don’t think that’s atypical except we do usually manage a bishopric person.
We’ve had the council every first Sunday that we’ve had (not Gen Conf month or our Stake Conf month). No resistance in our ward. hawkgrrrl wrote:
We’ve had the council every first Sunday that we’ve had (not Gen Conf month or our Stake Conf month). No resistance in our ward.
When I say resistance here, I’m not referring to militancy. It’s more of an unwillingness or lack of desire to change. Just to be clear.
Again, I’m not the council police or the curriculum police but I see these changes as good, just like I see the ministering change as good. In both cases the church is asking for a culture change, and a much needed culture change IMO.
Church is what you make of it (and also…council is what your leadership makes it out to be), and leadership roulette determines the true curriculum…because…well…who else checks on it or makes it any different? If a group doesn’t councilon a sunday, they can make that call. Stake leaders may train them on it…but…it could happen. Depends on local leaders. If you ward is die hard on 1st sundays being a council as they define what a council is…well…that’s the way it will go in your ward.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
No resistance in our ward.
I see my ward trying to figure it out…but…it often doesn’t feel like we know what we are doing. But we are trying. People are trying to get some actions to make it meaningful rather than just talk. But…like I said…I don’t get the feeling they know what we are supposed to do, and so…most actions end with…”Let’s get the bishop’s input to know who best to minister to”…because…we don’t know if we are allowed to do our own stuff or if we are doing it wrong or if it will be useful.
But we council about it.
The good that has come out of it so far….I can raise my hand and say “Some people don’t want to be challenged to go to the temple. It isn’t loving them by telling them they are not good enough where they are and must be more like what I think they should be.”
The cons…it has turned into more discussions of what ministering “isn’t” instead of what our actions should be.
I wonder what investigators watching us flounder about must think, while we are all professing how wonderful it is to have a new prophet tell us to change home/visiting teaching to ministering.
A council ideally is an open forum where people can express honest and differing ideas and views. S I have been part of that sort of atmosphere on more than one occasion, partly because I refuse to be a traditional yes man. It is wonderful.
That is how councils on Sunday generally work in my current ward, because we have a humble Bishop who wants honest, differing input, and that attitude rubs off on others,
Since January we had a few councils, and two of them were on ministering — the last two. The first one was a guilt trip. It was basically “Home Teaching is dead, long live home teaching”. The second one was a training lesson on ministering. I am not active enough to have a voice in the quorum now. I know when I was HPGL it was hard to take the input of brethren seriously, or their constructive criticism, when they would show up whenever they felt like it, like I do. So, I don’t consider myself to have a voice.
But to answer the question — to counsel, to me, simply means to have a healthy discussion about the needs of the Ward, and how to meet them. There can be opposing views presented with a resolution and final decision made either by the leader or the group, depending on the issue. It includes consensus-seeking and is a form of participative leadership.
I’d like for councils to be something a little different but I guess councils are meant to address specific kinds of needs in the ward. To employ a little hyperbole, the council becomes a more formal reminder to meet the stake president’s goal of reading the Book of Mormon every day, where differing input is: I read the BoM before bedtime. I read the BoM in the morning because sometimes I fall asleep if I try to read it before bed. I read one chapter a day. I read 5 minutes a day. etc.
And I want to have the discussion: why the obsession with the BoM?
😈 Maybe that’s my deal. I’d rather explore the whys and what ifs of theology and the church just isn’t meant for such things. Councils appear to be more concerned with setting goals for people to do more genealogy, read the BoM more, minister more, etc.
nibbler wrote:
Councils appear to be more concerned with setting goals for people to do more genealogy, read the BoM more, minister more, etc.
Maybe…but if the council hasn’t addressed the “Why do we care about doing x, y, and z?”…then I’m not sure it can succeed.
The experience in the council depends on the dynamics of that team, and their level of maturity and development.
The level of self-awareness of team members is going to impact the team dynamics and outcome.
The Johari windowIf it is super dysfunctional, or just way way too much in the “blind spot” area to venture beyond just regurgitating what church is about week after week…same boring stories…same shunning of any new ideas or change…well…the council just will be a self-affirmation support group that they are right in everything and everyone else is just part of the lone and dreary wicked world, so let’s keep patting ourselves on the back so we don’t have to change or learn to love others with greater compassion. If that is all it is…why join that council?…if they know their answers before they ask the questions…why converse with them?
I would say the purpose of any good council is to accomplish shared goals that cannot as effectively be achieved by an individual alone (or that person should just go do it…and no need to waste time counseling).
There are a lot of different aspects that determine if our 3rd hour church councils will be productive or a waste of time, fulfilling or frustrating. Some of these would be if:
– clear goals on what the council is counseling on has been communicated and understood
– How much social pressure and influence there is in the group
– cohesiveness
– compatibility
– norms and expectations
– morale
– social climate
– satisfaction from the approach
…and others.
SilentDawning wrote:It includes consensus-seeking and is a form of participative leadership.
I agree with SD. And I think there can be great variation on the effectiveness. But if they are trying to make it participative…I like that idea. Jury is out if it produces change or not, however, I think the change I want may not be commonly shared by others in my ward.
My personal view is I would love to get consensus from my ward that we don’t need consensus on everything to be a ward. Everyone come to church as you are…no need to conform to one standard. That would be my desire.
I am unsure if I can add to the development of the group to make it worthwhile…or if it is what it is…and I either participate in the council or go home.
You may like this little presentation on group dynamics that I think each stake should be figuring out how to come together to achieve worthy goals if we want our 3rd hours to be worthwhile:
https://prezi.com/ras-pp3vq-nk/theories-of-group-dynamics/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://prezi.com/ras-pp3vq-nk/theories-of-group-dynamics/ I have so much to say about this, but the church is so against using the knowledge of learned men, or knowledge from the world, that they won’t listen to most of it anyway. So my enthusiasm to contribute such knowledge is waning…. I wouldn’t call our ward’s councils dysfunctional, just not relevant to me. Maybe I’m the only one out of forty guys that just isn’t interested in talking about the family proclamation (for the millionth time) where the council’s takeaway is to read the family proclamation (again) during FHE and report back the next Sunday how it went. I feel completely guilt free in ignoring that council and I do not feel as though I am on the hook to comply with the imposed goal but when you do enough of the “in one ear and out the other” routine you start questioning why you should attend council.
If that’s what the other 39 people need out of councils then I think it would be wrong of me to try to get the council to change subjects.
Maybe you could make a case that if a quorum can’t have a council that reaches all members at least once over a 6 month period then it is dysfunctional but I think the expectation is that we’re at church, we already know the answers, now is a time to act, and the actions will take on church flavored things. Teach your kids the proclamation, invite a neighbor to church, visit your assigned families, boy wouldn’t it be nice if SM attendance were higher, go to the temple more, etc. When at church what else should I expect our councils to be about?
Originally I think there was an element where the councils were to discuss specific needs of individuals. Brother Smith needs someone to rake his yard, Sister Young needs someone to take her home after her operation, etc. but when we run out of those kinds of things I think we fell back on the church standards – ideas like everyone “needs” to be reading the Book of Mormon every day. ZzzZZzZzzZzzZzzZZz
I too have quite a bit to say about this subject but don’t feel like typing it all. Suffice it to say that most of what I’m reading here doesn’t sound like they’re councils to me. Councils, discussions and lessons are not one in the same even though they might share some similarities with each other. SilentDawning wrote:
I have so much to say about this, but the church is so against using the knowledge of learned men, or knowledge from the world, that they won’t listen to most of it anyway. So my enthusiasm to contribute such knowledge is waning….
:problem: hmmm…idk… missionaries are using Facebook and handhelds and tablets.Seems like they are open to trying practical things, no?
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