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I think we have framed the pornography discussion in a way that creates a lot of disappointment for everyone in the church. This is again at the mercy of the leadership roulette and the approach and penalties vary with different bishops and stake presidents. By treating any viewing of pornography as a sin and any indulgence as an addiction, we have a lot of people who view themselves as addicts and we may even incentivize addictive behavior. I would propose some healthier approaches would be: 1. Let’s all acknowledge that people (mostly men) are naturally interested in pornography, this doesn’t make them perverts or deviants; 2. Let’s talk about why pornography can be harmful; 3. Let’s frame the discussion in terms of how can we avoid this behavior, how can we do it less, instead of the standard being total abstinence; 4. Reframe this as breaking a bad habit instead of an addiction, i.e. how to phase this out, do it less, etc; 5. Move away from the expectation of total abstinence; 6. De stigmatize it and let people be real in talking about their struggles.
The Church’s current 12 step program strongly encourages people to say that they have an addiction and their life is unmanageable. This seems like a big overreaction for people who occasionally view porn and are trying not to. We’ve demonized something that is an unhealthy, but very normal behavior. We’ve also told a lot of men they are addicts and are broken for doing it and have a lot of women fearing that their husbands are addicts and will inevitably become Ted Bundy.
Can we all admit the approach we as a Church have taken since the 90s is not working and we need to try something else? I think the answer is to ease up, let people talk about it, ratchet down the rhetoric and hopefully have everyone view less porn.
We have quite a few threads in our archives about this issue. I will try to find one or more when I have a few minutes and provide the link(s) to supplement the comments from others on this post. felixfabulous wrote:
I thinkwe have framed the pornography discussion in a way that creates a lot of disappointment for everyone in the church...I would propose some healthier approaches would be: 1. Let’s all acknowledge that people (mostly men) are naturally interested in pornography, this doesn’t make them perverts or deviants…Can we all admit the approach we as a Church have taken since the 90s is not working and we need to try something else? I think the answer is to ease up, let people talk about it, ratchet down the rhetoric and hopefully have everyone view less porn.
I’m sure the Church and other moral crusaders like some feminists mean well with this but what I don’t think they realize is how much of an uphill battle this really is. So instead of actually stopping or even reducing the viewing of porn/nudity in many cases the main thing all the demonization and zero tolerance attitudes have really accomplished is that they have basically encouraged many men to keep it secret almost as if their life depended on it. In fact, I think the guilt-trips and fear can quite often backfire and actually result in even more viewing of porn/nudity because then people are thinking about it more and it becomes some sort of forbidden fruit.
I also think this approach greatly increases the chances of divorce and even suicide in the worst cases because it sets the unrealistic expectation that this should never happen when it is definitely going to continue to happen no matter how terrible people act like it is. Another way it can backfire for the Church in particular is that if young men believe they are unworthy to go on missions, get married in the temple, etc. then they are more likely to drop out of the Church and I think the only reason the Church has as many men supporting it as it currently does is because many of them haven’t let this discourage them as much as it could if they really took it as seriously as some of these leaders repeatedly act like it is. But I don’t really expect them to change their tune anytime soon because it has become a major pet issue for the Church to harp on repeatedly as sort of a go-to scapegoat and boogeyman.
The Church operates on prophetic inspiration. Because of this, it’s very difficult for the leadership to admit when things aren’t working and make adjustments. Reduction and rehabilitation should be the goal, and I agree that current Church practice is less effective than it should be. In all fairness, I do think the Church’s approach leads to a desire to change, which is a step up from a lot of what we see in “the World”. But facillitating change is a whole new battle. The old model of faith, prayer, and repentance too often just doesn’t cut it. And when it doesn’t work, it makes those struggling feel even worse. I do wish we were more open about it, and less judgemental. Don’t get me wrong, porn is bad. The world would be a much better place without it. But we shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:
I’m sure the Church and other moral crusaders like some feminists mean well with this but what I don’t think they realize is how much of an uphill battle this really is. So instead of actually stopping or even reducing the viewing of porn/nudity in many cases the main thing all the demonization and zero tolerance attitudes have really accomplished is that they have basically encouraged many men to keep it secret almost as if their life depended on it. In fact, I think the guilt-trips and fear can quite often backfire and actually result in even more viewing of porn/nudity because then people are thinking about it more and it becomes some sort of forbidden fruit.I also think this approach greatly increases the chances of divorce and even suicide in the worst cases because it sets the unrealistic expectation that this should never happen when it is definitely going to continue to happen no matter how terrible people act like it is. Another way it can backfire for the Church in particular is that if young men believe they are unworthy to go on missions, get married in the temple, etc. then they are more likely to drop out of the Church and I think the only reason the Church has as many men supporting it as it currently does is because many of them haven’t let this discourage them as much as it could if they really took it as seriously as some of these leaders repeatedly act like it is. But I don’t really expect them to change their tune anytime soon because it has become a major pet issue for the Church to harp on repeatedly as sort of a go-to scapegoat and boogeyman.
I agree. I think that an additional unexpected consequence is the pulling away from families. The unworthiness (real or perceived) + the expectation that the partner will reject that person (whether that judgement call is accurate is a form of roulette in and of itself) + in some cases, the shutting down of conversations between partners to hide the usage = the person pulling away from the partner and from the family unit and the couple not communicating and refining expectations and championing each other in personal goals selected in this area (if there are any). This is intensified if the partner does internalize what the porn usage means in a negative way, and if shared resources (energies, finances, time) are utilized excessively.
Soaking people in shame never produces good fruits. The porn industry is evil. Flat-out evil. I rarely speak in absolutes, but anyone who doesn’t see the industry as evil hasn’t studied it enough. It is horrific. It thrives for two reasons: 1) We are wired to enjoy sex and sexual content. 2) Shaming drives and deepens addiction. Shaming turns simple, occasional viewing into perceived addiction, and “shameful” addictions are the hardest to overcome.
I have NO problem with the teaching that porn is bad. I have a HUGE problem with how we deal with it.
Thanks for the great responses and the links to some previous discussions. I have been trying to change things in my neck of the woods. I recently gave a talk in stake conference and admitted to everyone I was a compulsive user of porn for most of my life. I outlined what I did to change and invited everyone to follow my lead. I made sure to make these points in my talk:
- Most men and a lot of women in our church do it (about 70% and 30% among millenials)
- It is harmful
- Hiding the problem makes it worse
- It is possible to be free
- It requires more than a trip to the bishop’s office
- Allow God to change us, and then the behavior will change
My vulnerability at the pulpit has helped reduce some of the shame others feel. Since then I have witnessed that our stake has approached this problem from a fresh perspective and I’ve been really encouraged by what I’ve been hearing the bishops say and what is being discussed in all the wards.
We need to stop pretending that we’re all perfect and start sharing with others about our life’s challenges and truly try to help each other overcome our weaknesses. We also need to be patient with people and let them progress at their own pace.
JAC – I am so glad you had the opportunity to do that. I am thrilled that it has created a space where the conversation and reactions can change. I hope it lasts a long time. JAC: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: I’ll be vulnerable here.. Porn can also be very helpful.
No one mentioned this at church.
I have come to view porn as almost everything else: Too much is bad.
For many years it has been almost impossible for me and my wife to have sex because she is suffering from anxiety and general shame about sex (shame was 100% church induced, maybe also the anxiety).
Watching porn, helped my wife to mature sexually and get rid of the shame. It has opened up the whole sex-talk in our relationship and frankly, porn has been a life(or sex) saver for us.
Why is stuff like this never mentioned at church? I thought the church was supposed to help people.
The church caused the problem (in my wife) and actively doing something that the church hates, fixed it.
Seriously – it makes me mad that it can ruin people’s lives and most importantly – keep them from fixing their lives.
Porn is like chocolate. Like wine, like money, like anything really.
It just matters how you use it, and what you use it for.
Addiction is often a different thing. People can be addicted to many different things. Porn and food included. I know people who easily become addicted to porn, video games, internet usage. And the common thing is addiction. Not porn. Not the internet. Not computer games.
Addiction is a thing in itself.
I don’t have addictive tendencies and if I drank I probably wouldn’t be an alcoholic. I play computer games but don’t become addicted.
I think the church conflates addiction and porn. And conflates evil and porn.
Sexual purity can be just as evil, if it destroys your future sex life. (As it did with my wife).
Please church, have some grey scale in your thinking. Not just black and white.
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Bear wrote:
I’ll be vulnerable here..Porn can also be very helpful…No one mentioned this at church.I have come to view porn as almost everything else: Too much is bad.
For many years it has been almost impossible for me and my wife to have sex because she is suffering from anxiety and general shame about sex (shame was 100% church induced, maybe also the anxiety)…Watching porn, helped my wife to mature sexually and get rid of the shame. It has opened up the whole sex-talk in our relationship and frankly, porn has been a life(or sex) saver for us.
Why is stuff like this never mentioned at church? I thought the church was supposed to help people.The church caused the problem (in my wife) and actively doing something that the church hates, fixed it.
Seriously – it makes me mad that it can ruin people’s lives and most importantly – keep them from fixing their lives.
Porn is like chocolate. Like wine, like money, like anything really.
It just matters how you use it, and what you use it for.
Sexual purity can be just as evil, if it destroys your future sex life. (As it did with my wife).
Please church, have some grey scale in your thinking. Not just black and white…
Thank you for sharing this, I think it’s a valid point that needs to be made. The Church loves to tell people how things are supposed to work in theory according to them but it seems like they don’t want to hear about or even consider the possibility that in reality specifically not doing what they say can and does actually make life better and more enjoyable in practice for many people.
dande48 wrote:
The Church operates on prophetic inspiration. Because of this,it’s very difficult for the leadership to admit when things aren’t working and make adjustments.Reduction and rehabilitation should be the goal, and I agree that current Church practice is less effective than it should be…In all fairness, I do think the Church’s approach leads to a desire to change, which is a step up from a lot of what we see in “the World”. But facillitating change is a whole new battle. The old model of faith, prayer, and repentance too often just doesn’t cut it. And when it doesn’t work, it makes those struggling feel even worse.I do wish we were more open about it, and less judgemental. Don’t get me wrong, porn is bad. The world would be a much better place without it. But we shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
I think it comes down to a question of what “sins” do we have to live with to some extent or not and why? And what happens if we act like some “sins” are absolutely impossible to live with but that doesn’t actually successfully stop many people from “sinning” this way anyway? Theologically it seems like viewing porn/nudity should be about the same as masturbation, sexual fantasies, and reading explicit romance novels like Fifty Shades of Grey (basically substitutes for real sex between marriage partners in the Church’s view). But we rarely, if ever, hear about how everyone supposedly needs to be permanently cured of their masturbation or romance novel “addictions” in the Church the way we repeatedly hear about porn. Why is that?
I think part of it is they feel uncomfortable about saying masturbation (hence the odd euphemism “self-abuse” used in leadership handbooks) and they don’t think romance novels are that much of a problem because some wives are completely freaking out about porn but many men couldn’t care less if their wife reads romance novels. But previous leaders like Boyd K. Packer, Spencer W. Kimball, and Mark E. Petersen didn’t hesitate to try to give young men exaggerated guilt-trips about masturbation in a way that doesn’t seem to be happing in the Church anymore. Personally I think more of them have started to realize that if the Church weeded out masturbators to the same extent that it has effectively weeded out most drinkers, smokers, and fornicators then there wouldn’t be very many men and young men left to bless and pass the sacrament, go on missions, get married in the temple, and serve in callings to keep wards and branches running.
In other words masturbation is a “sin” they almost have no choice but to live with to some extent. But viewing porn/nudity, by contrast, has traditionally been put in the same category as disobeying the Word of Wisdom and premarital sex as completely unacceptable. And to be fair I think this zero tolerance policy actually used to work fairly well in the 1990s and before like the Word of Wisdom still does as far as getting faithful members to stop before going on missions and/or getting married. But high-speed internet, smart phones, tablets, etc. have been a complete game-changer that have made expecting the same results as before almost impossible because now it is much more like masturbation than disobeying the WoW in practice where it costs people nothing and it is much easier to keep private without anyone that would disapprove knowing about it. Basically many in the Church have still not adjusted to the current reality very well and the old hard-line zero tolerance approach is increasingly starting to backfire in multiple different ways.
Actually I know someone who got sent to ARP for too many romance novels
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