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This could be included with other topics. To avoid going off topic, I decided to create a new topic. Recently our Elders Quorum decided to have a meeting with this subject:
Quote:How hardship brings us closer to our Savior
They decided to send out an email ahead of Sunday’s meeting so members could have time to consider the topic & review
their life experiences to answer the following questions the following Sunday:
Quote:
1. What is the biggest challenge/hardship you have faced in your life? What did you learn from that experience?2. In which ways do you feel hard work is intertwined with physical and spiritual progression? How does this relate to the Plan of Salvation?
3. What scriptures come to your mind that relate the value of trials in our lives? What do they mean to you?
4. How can we stand as a quorum and strengthen those around us who are going through hardships? (Be prepared to set personal and quorum goals)
This is not meant to be a criticism of the church or the EQ. I personally appreciate the effort to try to understand & find solutions to overcome hardships & challenges that are all will experience to some degree. My first reaction was: wow this person must be young & he is. My second
reaction was: there is no way in hell that I would discuss my biggest challenge/hardship within a large group.
What would your reaction be?
When this is presented, I hope I don’t sound angry.
I believe that the church teaches a gospel that drifts heavy on the internal locus of control, free agency, and self sufficiency. Therefore what I think they are looking for is a narrative where: 1) the individual had a challenge 2) The individual prayed and received the enabling power of grace, and 3) the individual overcame the challenge through hard work and determination (and the aforementioned grace).
I believe that any number of scriptures could be sited to support this narrative, “I can do all thrings through Christ which strengthens me”, “faith withot works is dead”, and Ether 12:12: “For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith.” that is oft shortened to “faith preceeds the miracle.”
I suppose the part that most confuses me is #4. I wonder what type of personal and quorum goals might be proposed to help the quorum “strenghten those around us.”
I don’t mind the general lesson focus, although it obviously comes from a place of relative privilege. From my experience, few members share their biggest problem; instead, they share the biggest one they think is appropriate for that setting – knowing they aren’t in a professional counseling group and that somebody is likely to share with others whatever they share. Confidentiality doesn’t exist in that sort of church setting, and most members know that.
Old Timer wrote:
From my experience, few members share their biggest problem; instead, they share the biggest one they think is appropriate for that setting –
This is what I was thinking if I was asked to share.
I do like the idea of quorum goals, a support group of like minded individuals can help each other. I understand that this help is then also on the surface problems, rather than the deep problems which are not shared.
But perhaps a quorum goal that would not be too overbearing on an individual would be keeping in contact with those who need extra help. I know that’s generalized, but a more specific goal would for us would be having an eldrs quorum get together once a month.
Personally, I wouldn’t hesitate to say, I’m not talking openly about my worse hardship experience. I wouldn’t feel comfortable talking about something so personal in a group (especially a church) setting.
It’s difficult one on one or anonymously such as our little group.
How I personally reacted to my FC wasn’t very
Quote:faith promoting.
Honestly, my gut reaction would be “How typical…”. It just sounds like a very expected approach, attempting to validate and explain our struggles, tying them in with the gospel, in order to promote faith and build quorum unity. I think it was approached prayerfully and by the “spirit”… and not very well thought out. But I think it’ll be well enough to humor them with a not-so-big hardship, or try and focus on the stories that want to be shared. We just had this lessonI’ll oversimplify but the takeaway is often – don’t let trials lead you away from the church/Christ. We start off with the assumption that people are 100% capable of choosing how they react to trials and then we talk about how trails are meant to bring us closer to Christ and if they cause you to struggle… another trial I suppose.
During the lesson I felt like we had more in common with Job’s friends than we did Job.
And the very next lesson included a discussion on how we should increase our personal righteousness if we want to enjoy success in missionary work.
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: Quote:There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Right or wrong I think people that warp the scripture into saying we’ll never face a trial that we can’t bear just haven’t experienced such a trial in their lives. It’s okay to be broken. That may be a part of it, we’re all to broken to admit that.
When I was going through my FC, I wanted desperately to believe that going to church & following the leadership & reading scripture & prayer would give me strength & encouragement & hope to carry on & endure. It didn’t. At the time, everything seemed BLACK & hopeless. So I stopped going to church. We continued to have HT’s. But, not church. It took time. A lot of time before I could even consider coming back to church. Then it took time to where I felt reasonably comfortable being there. Now we’ve carved out a little space where we can contribute and feel like we belong. But it will never be the same. And I probably shouldn’t expect it to be the same. My conclusion through all of this is: God chooses to reveal himself when chooses to be revealed. If you can’t find Him in church do something else. Then come back to church & see if you can find Him there again.
I will never be able to talk about my journey in an open meeting like PH. I do talk with close friends that I trust (both inside & outside of church).
Minyan Man wrote:
When I was going through my FC, I wanted desperately to believe that going to church & following the leadership & reading scripture & prayerwould give me strength & encouragement & hope to carry on & endure. It didn’t. At the time, everything seemed BLACK & hopeless. So I stopped going to church. We continued to have HT’s. But, not church. It took time. A lot of time before I could even consider coming back to church. Then it took time to where I felt reasonable comfortable being there. Now we’ve carved out a little space where we can contribute and feel like we belong. But it will never be the same. And I probably shouldn’t expect it to be the same. My conclusion through all of this is: God chooses to reveal himself when chooses to be revealed. If you can’t find Him in church do something else. Then come back to church & see if you can find Him there again.
I will never be able to talk about my journey in an open meeting like PH. I do talk with close friends that I trust (both inside & outside of church).
We take church a Sunday at a time. We had 2 weekends where Saturday was absolutely brutal in the peopling, chaos, and I didn’t want to be there and “play nice” in double-checking that I was saying what I could say and not saying what was not culturally acceptable. This past Sunday I stayed at home with the girls and watched some General Conference talks while my husband went in for his meetings and to take the sacrament. I suspected one of my daughters of having a slight fever on Saturday – so played it safe (OK 50% child potentially sick card, and 50% I don’t-want-to-sit-through-testimony-meeting). I switch between being the “good parent” and making sure that the girls make it to church (my husband does not have a track record of taking 1 or both girl to church without me), and between not going.
I am hopeful that God will choose to reveal/reconfirm a relationship with me, but I no longer expect it or think that it is something that I have a lot of control over. I also am not interested in keeping the commandments in expectation of that blessing. I am all for obeying “rules” that are set up for a variety of ethical, personal values, moral, and cultural reasons. On some levels, I am waiting for the “further light and knowledge” that was promised. Paradoxically, I am also looking inwards to figure out what that light and knowledge would look like, and assuming I am my own light
🙂 Minyan Man wrote:
When I was going through my FC, I wanted desperately to believe that going to church & following the leadership & reading scripture & prayerwould give me strength & encouragement & hope to carry on & endure. It didn’t. At the time, everything seemed BLACK & hopeless. So I stopped going to church. We continued to have HT’s. But, not church. It took time. A lot of time before I could even consider coming back to church. Then it took time to where I felt reasonably comfortable being there. Now we’ve carved out a little space where we can contribute and feel like we belong. But it will never be the same. And I probably shouldn’t expect it to be the same. My conclusion through all of this is: God chooses to reveal himself when chooses to be revealed. If you can’t find Him in church do something else. Then come back to church & see if you can find Him there again.
I will never be able to talk about my journey in an open meeting like PH. I do talk with close friends that I trust (both inside & outside of church).
My experience was very much like Minyan Man’s. I think the key is letting go of the cultural/prosperity gospel idea that if we’re doing “everything right” we won’t trials. I think that’s false doctrine, actually. If we believe that we came here to gain experience and experience pain that we might appreciate joy, etc., then our theology really is that we
musthave trials and hardships. Jesus himself cried out on the cross “Why has thou forsaken me?” I can talk about my experience in PH to some extent, but choose not to share most of it because it is personal. On the other hand, I often share only because it helps others to understand that they’re not the only ones.
Looking back about 5 years, I’d say I do feel closer to God than ever before – but my expectation bar has been considerably lowered and that contributes to the way I feel.
Well, first regarding question #1. Asking the question is begging for loss of control of the discussion. We have all had hardships. We have all had struggles. We humans have a strong desire to show off our best scars (Jaws). I’ve seen, first hand, this kind of question be followed by an escalation of “me too, but worse” kind of comments. But, that’s just the style of this teacher/leader. It’s not my style, but fine.
More important, though, is that there is a very strong undercurrent in the Church that God makes us suffer these hardships to strengthen us, and that we are blessed, IF we stay true to Him through these God-created trials.
Our church isn’t the only one to see it this way. For a lot of Christians, if something goes horribly bad for them, they will quip, “Everything happens for a reason.” This line of thinking gives rise to the age old question of why God would allow so much suffering in the world (modified in more recent history to focus especially on children who suffer). Job is a particularly problematic vestige of uncomfortable teachings… Job’s friends assume he has offended God to be so terribly punished… but the truth presented in Job is far worse… God did this to Job in spite of and even because of his faithfulness.
There is no way not to make your head spin if this is the way we really think of God and hardships. So, let me just say that I think this is completely the wrong narrative.
Since I don’t believe God either actively creates or passively sets up trials to test/strengthen His followers, I’ve come to view this issue much differently. To me, hardships don’t exist for any purpose, but are simply an unfortunate side effect of being alive. However, the faith/belief/hope that a person has may provide him/her a measure of strength in the face of adversity and an inner peace to combat the effects. If so, good for them. (Others may find these anchor points in love of family, dedication to a cause, being alone in the mountains, etc.) In other words, I think it’s useful not to think of hardships as a contrivance, either to prove us or to strengthen us, but rather to think of faith as a source of strength against hardships.
I suppose I would like an increase in the types of stories where there is no happy ending. The hardship still sucks. We can walk a painful and thorny path everyday. Maybe our journey with our savior is the occasional whisper that taking another faltering step forward is worth the effort. Not as impressive as a triumphant victory march but sometimes much more relatable.
On Own Now wrote:
Since I don’t believe God either actively creates or passively sets up trials to test/strengthen His followers, I’ve come to view this issue much differently. To me, hardships don’t exist for any purpose, but are simply an unfortunate side effect of being alive. However, the faith/belief/hope that a person has may provide him/her a measure of strength in the face of adversity and an inner peace to combat the effects. If so, good for them. (Others may find these anchor points in love of family, dedication to a cause, being alone in the mountains, etc.) In other words, I think it’s useful not to think of hardships as a contrivance, either to prove us or to strengthen us, but rather to think of faith as a source of strength against hardships.
I think that 90% of hardships exist as a byproduct of mortality.
For the challenges I face in my life, I like to think that I make the best choices available from the limited choices I have – most of the time.
I strive to view each challenge as an opportunity to become a better person.In the past, “better” meant more in tune with what I thought God wanted – now, “better” means more charitable, and more ethical. Before my faith transition, I looked to God for what I believed was peace and inner strength. Since my faith transition, I assume that the peace and inner strength are inside me as I balance my thoughts and actions in the best way possible with the resources I have – making no expectations of God in the process.
AmyJ wrote:
I think that 90% of hardships exist as a byproduct of mortality … [snip] … making no expectations of God in the process.
My faith crisis was built upon the premise of the “just world Hypothesis” IOW that Righteousness = Blessings or “Good things happen to good people.”Some good news is that I had a stable and happy childhood of relative privlidge that allowed me to to form such a worldview. Ultimately, after my FC I came out the other end believing that God loves me. God does not love me more or less based on my performance. Nor does God intervene in my life as a demonstration of that love. God’s love is indipendant of my achievements or my circumstances.
Interestingly, I feel closer to my Savior now. Before, it was a very transaction based relationship. “What are you going to do for me today?” “I gave you X, now you owe me Y.” That is the sort of contractual relationship I have with my insurance agent. “I paid my dues on time and you keep my policy from lapsing.” Now our relationship is no longer encumbered with such expectations.
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