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  • #212461
    Anonymous
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    Does it ever feel like it’s all just a big spiritual ponzi scheme to any of you? I had trouble sleeping last night (life continues to be very difficult) and this analogy came to mind. I paid in and sacrificed for so many years when life was relatively good. My thinking was (and this was taught to me various times in some form or another at church) that if I can fill that spiritual piggy bank now with good works and gratitude then God will be there for me when I inevitably need him later in life. Conversely, if I pridefully choose to mess around and take things for granted then the piggy bank will be empty and I will be unworthy to receive God’s help, comfort and guidance when needed. Additionally, (furthering the ponzi scheme idea) each time I went in for a Bishop’s interview or met with leaders I was reassured that my actions were indeed in line with God’s will and that the bank statement, if you will, on my spiritual piggy bank was looking great. According to my leaders, God was pleased and my piggy bank was indeed full. Then when it finally came time for me to cash in and ask for God’s help, I broke open my spiritual piggy bank only to find it was completely empty.

    For me, from the moment real challenges came into my life God has been completely AWOL. It was great when I needed help solving question #8 on my 10th grade math test, but in the challenges I’ve faced these past few years where divine help was (and still is) absolutely needed he seems to be non-existent.

    For every conference talk that reaffirms how difficult life can and will be, there seem to be 10 more conference talks that tell “faith-promoting” stories of how obedience kept people safe and spared them unnecessary suffering. I’m confused and not sure what to make of it.

    #334324
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I was hanging out with my sister the other day, and we got on the topics of MLMs (which are Ponzi Schemes). She mentioned how in our home stake, a certain Essential Oil MLM has become an epidemic problem. People are dumping their savings, foregoing health insurance, always pushing product… and I told her how we had a similar issue on my mission with hispanics and the MLM herbalife, where they’d spend money they didn’t have, end up with all this product they couldn’t sell, and several thousand in debt… which to us would sting, but their poverty made it even worse. Then she mentioned (she’d a TBM, BTW), how members of the Church seem particularly susceptible to MLMs. I pointed out it’s probably because they share many of the same techniques as religions, which she didn’t like.

    I meant no offense, since if the Church were true, and eternal salvation and happiness depended on believing in the right sort of things, it doesn’t matter how you reach those right conclusions. If someone vaccinates their kids, despite having a complete misunderstanding of how vaccines work, and were convinced through internet memes… well, at least their kids won’t die from the measles. But my point is, those social psych techniques are used, not because they lead to “truth”, but because they’re effective.

    I do wish there were more talks on coming to peace with our challenges; that even if the very worst were to happen, it’s ok. We’ll make it through. Or even if we don’t, the universe will carry on. For all its virtues, the Church doesn’t do a very good job at helping people accept the facts of life; good fortune sometimes comes to bad people (and good). Awful fortune sometimes comes to good people (and bad). Oftentimes, for “no good reason”. Life has its good moments, but sometimes it’s really going to beat you up. You’re never going to be certain of anything. And then you’re going to die. And that’s ok. 🙂

    #334325
    Anonymous
    Guest

    mfree6464 wrote:


    Does it ever feel like it’s all just a big spiritual ponzi scheme to any of you?

    To me the gospel that I sometimes hear at church is akin to an insurance policy. This is perhaps a different form of the prosperity gospel. Instead of wealth and success raining down from heaven, the Mormon prosperity Gospel is more often about mitigating potential disasters. Thus, I feel the comparison to the insurance policy is appropriate.

    It was when a tragedy struck my family and I was shocked and reeling that I tried to take a closer look at my own proverbial policy. What had gone wrong? Did the lord fail me or did I fail the lord? Between personal study and discussion with local church leaders I discovered that the “small print” gives so much wiggle room and prevarication as to make the entire contract entirely unenforceable.

    I now believe that there are many advantages that Mormon lifestyles that can serve to help mitigate personal and family disasters. Lives of thrift, self reliance, food storage, emergency funds, and communal banding together can be huge lifesavers. I also believe that the state of believing that God had my back helped my younger self to be more bold, determined, and confident than I otherwise would have been. These are traits that can usually help individuals go farther and accomplish more than they otherwise would have. However, there are no guarantees. Life and misfortune happen to all.

    mfree6464 wrote:


    For every conference talk that reaffirms how difficult life can and will be, there seem to be 10 more conference talks that tell “faith-promoting” stories of how obedience kept people safe and spared them unnecessary suffering. I’m confused and not sure what to make of it.

    It bothers me that we seem so hyper-focused on faith promoting success stories. I believe that it tends to squeeze out those of us that cannot interpret our life narrative into a faith promoting story. Unfortunately, when this happens it just leaves the remainder of more and more people whose lives tend to fit the mold. Those people move into leadership and they can testify from honest personal experience of the blessings of a lifetime of faithful church centered service.

    P.S. I believe that MLM’s tend to flourish among LDS because 1) there are a higher than normal percentage of stay at home mom’s looking to “work from home” 2) Mormons have a social network that they can leverage (at least initially) to make some sales 3) Mormons are probably more gulible than average.

    #334326
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Just to take the aside prompt from dande, I do believe that members of the Church are susceptible to Ponzi Schemes and MLMs. I think this is because these schemes are made to leverage trust. So, each of us is more likely to be taken into one of these schemes by a family member, co-worker, close friend or fellow worshiper, simply because of the trusted relationship. I know a great LDS family that is heavily inolved in an MLM, and they are the nicest and most sincere people… and heck… it works for them.

    #334327
    Anonymous
    Guest

    mfree,

    I look at it this way: Whether we believe in God or not, part of the spiritual strength that we can bring to bear on any given problem is going to come from inside of us, not from a remote being in yonder heavens. As we find our spiritual strength, we are naturally able to weather more storms.

    The teachings from the Sermon on the Mount, which we just covered in Sunday School, are the most clear expression of this idea in the Scriptures. Matthew 7: “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.” Notice in the passage that Jesus’ SAYINGS are the only divine aspect of this allegory. The rest is the house that the wise man built for himself and its ability to stand against the storm.

    With all this in mind, my suggestion is to look at all the good things you have done as having increased your own spirituality, apart from the Church. You have it within you to do good and to find strength. If there is a God and he/she reaches down to help you out once-in-a-while, count that as a bonus.

    #334328
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Most of the time, no. But one thing I do resent is trying to get me to refer friends. I have had so much trouble with this, from the fact I hide my church membership from many or play it down, or that it may injure my friendship. Cowardly I know. Another problem is that I don’t know vast numbers of people well, so it means I have a limited circle to refer. But constantly being pressurized to do this is uncomfortable.

    On one occasion I did refer a list of people and got given the third degree by the missionaries of how exactly I knew them etc. I regretted doing it.

    #334329
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I (try to) wear many hats. I’m going to put on my atheist hat, sideways, for this post.

    I remember sitting in a typical PH lesson years ago. I think the lesson was on meeting the missionary goals of the ward, I’m not 100% sure of the subject, but I remember the takeaway. We were talking about all the things we needed to do for heavenly father to bless us. As we went down the exhaustive list a thought popped in my head, “If we do all that we won’t even need the lord anymore.”

    There it was. Out in the open.

    Now, switching gears a bit… what made Jesus the Son of God? Just being born to the parents he was born to, or something more?

    Doctrine and Covenants 93:12-14 wrote:

    And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace; And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness; And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

    Jesus continued from grace to grace, and a part of Jesus’ journey included him uttering the words, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Even Jesus felt abandoned and alone at points along his journey and it strikes me that this feeling of abandonment by God must have been something that ultimately contributed toward Jesus’ perfection. Something that helped him and spurred him on towards becoming the Son of God.

    Journeys aren’t linear, I want to front-load with that idea. One aspect of Mormon doctrine is that our “probationary state” is meant to help us learn to become as god is. Perhaps discovering that a piggy bank is empty is god’s way of spurring us on to grow in ways that a full piggy bank would not allow. To rise to a new challenge and in so doing reduce our reliance on god, push us towards becoming a Son of God.

    I don’t mean to trivialize challenges anyone is going though. Feeling abandoned by god hurts more than anything. For what it’s worth, the scriptures do teach that Jesus took upon him all our infirmities…that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. I found it was an interesting exercise to think that Jesus had to have felt equally abandoned, even during a time when I felt personally abandoned by Jesus.

    #334330
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Roy wrote:


    I believe that MLM’s tend to flourish among LDS because 1) there are a higher than normal percentage of stay at home mom’s looking to “work from home” 2) Mormons have a social network that they can leverage (at least initially) to make some sales 3) Mormons are probably more gulible than average.

    1 – Yes. 2 – Yes. More so than many non-members. 3 – I think this is unkind. I would say Mormons are more innocent and artless. I don’t think they believe everything that comes their way, so much as they are trusting and less likely to be schemers.

    In regard to 2 – you have a group which doesn’t smoke, drink, drug or gamble. At least not as much. That creates disposable income. Mormons socialize a lot at home, rather than bars, and also have extended families of a kind which is dying out elsewhere.

    And 4 – every member a missionary. Many of us have been required to push an idea and to talk about it.

    5 – ironically, MLMs have the outward appearance of self-reliance.

    #334331
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Having a hard time saying “no” probably also factors in.

    #334332
    Anonymous
    Guest

    MC – For me the silence was the lesson. Did it tick me off? Yes. I shouted, shook, ignored, wept, and a million other things to God.

    I never had the piggy bank idea. But I did believe “He would always be there.” And then – he wasn’t. Or at least he wasn’t as I had always known him to be. Because I felt I had a track record of receiving personal guidance, comfort, warnings and the like, it really hurt that he let me fall down this way.

    I went searching and I learned – All the great spiritualists had the same experience. Whether Buddha, Mother Teresa, Moses, Martin Luther King and as Nibbler said – Jesus Christ.

    For me, that changed the game. This wasn’t a punishment or a discipline – like time out or grounding. It was a gift. And it was as hard on Him/Them (Heavenly parents) as it was for me.

    The Divine and I communicate differently now. A gift I hadn’t expected.

    I hope the same happens for you.

    #334333
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Roy wrote:


    P.S. I believe that MLM’s tend to flourish among LDS because 1) there are a higher than normal percentage of stay at home mom’s looking to “work from home” 2) Mormons have a social network that they can leverage (at least initially) to make some sales 3) Mormons are probably more gulible than average.

    I was seeing other connections. Specific similarities I can think of include:

    -Testimony meetings

    -Claims of miracles

    -The prosperity gospel / plant your seed of faith (your fault if it doesn’t bare fruit)

    -Requiring large investments of time and money.

    -A focus on agency (be your own boss!), yet with an insistance on strict obedience

    -Perfectionism. You aren’t doing enough, and should be doing more

    -Focus on prosyltizing

    -Regarding opposing evidence as an evil conspiracy and blatant falsehoods

    -No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry

    -Conferences, with charasmatic leaders who promise blessings

    -No real financial disclosure. Offers intentionally misleading statistics.

    -Reliance and trust in feelings/emotion over logic

    Ok, I think the biggest one is that last point. But in sharing similar models, while being co-compatible, is very seductive for the LDS, especially LDS Stay-at-home moms, where having only a single income to support a family is becoming more and more a real challenge, and where outward “blessings” are seen as a sign of God’s favor. And yet MLMs come along, and make extravagant promises it really can’t keep… yet points to miracles and success stories as if it were the norm. Which is what many churches do.

    #334334
    Anonymous
    Guest

    You could add another one –

    Personal referral. We tend to like things if someone we know can vouch for them.

    I think the gullibility thing is overplayed. Many LDS *are* successful in business, and that wouldn’t be the case if they believed everything that came their way.

    Quote:

    And yet MLMs come along, and make extravagant promises it really can’t keep… yet points to miracles and success stories as if it were the norm. Which is what many churches do.

    On another note, MLMs are not all disasters but only if you don’t play quite to their rules. If you work it all out and are clever enough *not* to recruit your immediate social circle (as they try and force you to) or start buying a lot of the product yourself, it is possible to make some income off them. When I lived in the countryside years ago, one of my mother’s friends used to make some extra money selling children’s books. They were really good quality illustrated books and I loved them, and there were not many places to buy books within a short distance. We must have been golden customers for her, but she was a genuinely nice woman and she did alright out of it. I can also point to a relative of mine who worked for a while selling househood products when he was younger and later went on to become a highly successful businessman. You won’t make thousands every week as some claim, but you may get enough to tide you over.

    I get the impression not all MLMs are equal. Avon for example, does sell some quite decent products that many women would be into. But I would avoid Herbalife like the plague. Amway + cult gets a lot of hits from any search engine.

    Me personally? I did kinda get stung by one of these, not a well known one, but I never spent much money on it and it only lasted a week or two before I felt I’d had enough. I have had bigger issues with regular employers.

    #334335
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I think the fundamental misunderstanding here is that the gospel is not in any way a spiritual Ponzi scheme. Others have alluded to the idea that very similar experiences led to their own faith crises. I’m a member of that club, although like Mom says not necessarily the piggy bank part – but I get that point of view and I wasn’t that far removed from it because of the whole idea of “works” (vs. grace I suppose). Like Mom, I did expect that everything would be taken care of, all I had to do was continue to obey. But everything wasn’t OK and didn’t turn out OK. I did learn though, and one of the things I learned was that the church, and teachings of the church, and teachings of members of the church (which would include church leaders) are all somewhat different from each other but all those very different from the simple truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Only then did I understand. There is no Ponzi and there is no piggy bank.

    #334336
    Anonymous
    Guest

    nibbler wrote:


    …a part of Jesus’ journey included him uttering the words, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Even Jesus felt abandoned and alone at points along his journey…


    I’ve thought a lot lately about the fact that Jesus was left alone for a time and seemingly saddened (or at least affected in some way) by it as well. I believe that I have learned more in the past three years than I learned in the previous 30+ years from church, seminary, BYU, general conferences, leaders, bishops, apostles and prophets. It seems that life is doing a much more effective job at teaching me about God (and being a better person in general) than church ever did.

    I think the confusion I mentioned in my original post stems more from the dissonance I am experiencing between the things I am now learning about God and the things I once “knew” about Him previously.

    #334337
    Anonymous
    Guest

    mfree6464 wrote:


    nibbler wrote:


    …a part of Jesus’ journey included him uttering the words, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Even Jesus felt abandoned and alone at points along his journey…


    I’ve thought a lot lately about the fact that Jesus was left alone for a time and seemingly saddened (or at least affected in some way) by it as well. I believe that I have learned more in the past three years than I learned in the previous 30+ years from church, seminary, BYU, general conferences, leaders, bishops, apostles and prophets. It seems that life is doing a much more effective job at teaching me about God (and being a better person in general) than church ever did.

    I think the confusion I mentioned in my original post stems more from the dissonance I am experiencing between the things I am now learning about God and the things I once “knew” about Him previously.

    I think a big part of this journey, rebuilding our faith, transitioning our faith, or whatever you want to call it is that we have to unlearn what we thought we knew.

    If you buy into the idea that Jesus suffered for all of our sins and that he descended below all things, Jesus must have had times when he felt alone/abandoned by God and/or the Spirit (as at least some of us have felt). The idea that he was is illustrated in the scripture quoted by Nibbler. I have chosen to believe that Christ did descend beneath all and does understand our pains and anguishes because he experienced them in some way I don’t understand.

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