Joseph Smith: Fallen prophet?

A main tenant of some of the offshoot churches is the idea that Joseph was a prophet but fallen. I am thinking particularly of the Church of Christ Temple Lot, but regarding polygamy it’s pretty much true if the Community of Christ as well. I can see where the idea comes from and even consider it a possibility. So, yes, I’ve heard it, but it is not the doctrine of the Church.

I understand that there was a fairly significant group that felt JS to be a fallen prophet during the time of the Kirtland banking scandal.

If I remember correctly, David Whitmer felt that the revelations received through the seer stone were reliable. Once JS moved beyond the stone and started composing revelations without it, Bro. Whitmer felt that he had faltered.

The Church of Christ (formerly reorganized LDS) is fascinating. They taught that JS never preached polygamy for many years. The LDS church (Brighamite) provided much proof by way of documented testimony from living witnesses to prove the practice. Many details surrounding the implementation of the practice in Nauvoo would likely have been lost if not for this religious dispute.

I would entertain the idea he was a fallen prophet. The Fannie Alger situation is one that sort of “reeks” to me, and I believe plural marriage might have been a doctrinal cover up of JS’s libido. I don’t think much about this, but it’s consistent with what I believe to be factual statements about his sexual behavior.

I suppose we would need to establish what makes a person a prophet. The scriptures are full of prophets that have serious flaws and have done very bad things. Once we establish the criteria for becoming a prophet in the first place, how would we distinguish a flawed prophet from a fallen prophet?

According to one common LDS assumption if the prophet is about to lead the church astray then God removes that prophet from his post. Thus, there is no such thing as a fallen prophet in modern LDS interpretation. A prophet and president of the church is either a “living prophet” or …

(makes slicing motion across throat). :sick:

Jaxz,

Throughout the history of the Church, there have been groups that didn’t like “current” teachings as much as (how they perceived) the older teachings, and they assert, to their convenience, that the “current” prophet is no longer viewed as a prophet by God. This happened early with the Hedrickites (Church of Christ (Temple Lot)). It happened during Kirtland, it happened in Missouri, it happened in Nauvoo. For example, the Nauvoo Expositor claimed that the Church as originally established was in truth, from God, but JS had taken it far afield and and the NE proposed reformation.

It happened during BY’s time, two examples of many: the scattered branches which became the Community of Christ and the Godbeites in the 1860’s (Church of Zion) that installed excommunicated Apostle Amasa Lyman as their president. It happened after the manifesto, claiming that JT was the last true prophet. It happened plenty of times in the 20th century and is actively happening now with the followers of Denver Snuffer. Any significant group that has broken away since the death of JS has viewed JS as faithful to the end, but subsequent leaders as losing the Church’s standing with God. Even within the RLDS/CoC Church, there have been significant breakaways since the 70’s/80’s. Even forming their own Churches, with their own prophets.

I suspect what drives this is a deep-rooted desire for it to be true to some degree, but to purge what they don’t like (polygamy or the end of polygamy, to name two).

This has never been and never will be a teaching of the CoJCoLDS.

I think in the CoJCoLDS, the most that will happen (and it’s much closer to this today than at any time in the past) is to think of JS as prophetic sometimes, and on-his-own, trying-his-best at other times.

Interesting, I have not done much reading about the Church of Christ. That line of thinking seems to fit most with what my mom was saying. I have to admit the idea did certainly appeal to my logical brain, I mean what better way to keep what I like while being able to disregard what I don’t? Lol, now if only my heart and my brain would get on the same page I’d be in business! I appreciate the input, it had been too difficult to research without coming across so many things that were so negative, and I try to tread lightly since my faith hangs by a thread some days.

I had my moments of believing that all Prophets at their moments of being a man of God and they had their moments of being a man of the flesh.

through personal studies I feel that Joseph Smith was never truly a prophet to begin with. He and his friends helped create a religion.

What is a prophet? Who qualifies? Once an individual meets the prophet requirements – how do they fall? What does it mean to fall? If a prophet were to fall and no longer be a prophet, would he or she know it?

On a more personal note, if my priesthood power were no longer valid (due to some combination of personal wickedness and apostacy) would I know it? Would I feel a difference? Would anyone else feel a difference?

What is a prophet?

A prophet is someone who speaks for God. People who qualify are given the office through a vision or visitation and receive the priesthood and the office by the laying on of hands. In the modern the church, it’s through succession in the Presidency.

Who qualifies?

Throoughout history, whoever God picks. His requirements aren’t clear, but they are not often the obvious choice.

How do they fall?

They commit some infraction that causes God to limit their powers, including taking away their office. I believe they can redeem themselves again, however.

If a prophet were to fall and no longer be a prophet, would s/he know it?

I would assume so. Would God want someone who had fallen out of favor continuing to speak on His behalf?

On a more personal note, if I lost the priesthood, would I know it?

If through excommunication, you’d have a letter. If it was through some divine intervention, or a temporay withdrawing of the heaven’s, you might feel less spiritual than usual, and your blessings would not seem to work. However, this happens for righteous people too. So, I don’t think you would know it unless it was part of excommunication.

Would Anyone else know the difference?

I doubt it. You can sense the righteousness of a person by the spirit you feel when they talk. But sometimes you don’t feel the spirit due to your own failings or lack of attentiveness to spiritual matters. So I don’t think a person would know.