If it’s true and essential, then why is not widely known?

I have also thought on this subject before. What I’ve come to believe is that, if there is a God, he doesn’t seem especially attached to any one religion over another. Things are so unclear with every religion in the world claiming to be God’s true church, and so many religious books, and so many different teachings, so many different ideas of God that have changed over history, etc. With everything being as unclear as it is, it seems like God either God is pretty unfair in expecting everyone to figure out His true religion, or, if He’s a loving God, that he actually doesn’t care what religion we follow. Either that, or it isn’t important to him that people belong to his true church while they’re mortal. Maybe instead of Mormonism being God’s one true church, and every other religion having only some truth, maybe every church (including Mormonism) in the world and every church in history has some truth to it.

That’s my view now. I have a hard time believing in a God who would be mad at me for losing my faith in Mormonism, when He’s made things unclear enough that I was able to misunderstand his communication with me, and by using my brain instead of my feelings, realized the church made no sense and could be a fraud, and I thought I had been tricked into following that fraud. I lost my faith based on a untrue prayer answer, and that was supposed to be my connection with God, so it made me realize if His way of communicating with us can be wrong, even when it feels like a very clear answer, then it wasn’t a valid way of figuring out truth.

Anyways, back to your thought, I think God is way less worried about what religion people join, than people seem to think He is.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I do not believe it is reasonable that people’s entire lives, their mortal probation, is wasted because they did not have access to the gospel (or failed to recognize or misunderstood the gospel). Therefore, whatever experiences or growth that they find must count for something. We LDS like to imagine that everyone will have the chance to convert and become Mormons after they die (when all the mortal confusion will presumably have dissipated). Such a doctrine was pretty expansive and inclusive for the time period.

I do not know if an afterlife exists and even if it does exist I find it impossible to predict what form it might take. Reincarnation? Heaven? A hive mind consciousness? Nothingness? Whatever happens I choose to have faith that “whatever experiences or growth that [life gives] must count for something.”

That seems to be enough for me right now. Live, grow, laugh, and love. Help others to do the same and respect others even if they do it differently.

Matt 13:9. Who Hath Ears to Hear, Let Him Hear.

“For whosoever receiveth,” Jesus declared, “to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance” (Joseph Smith Translation, Matthew 13:10 [in Matthew 13:12, footnote a]). So as we prepare to study the Savior’s parables—or any of His teachings—a good place to start is to examine our hearts and determine whether we are giving the word of God “good ground” in which to grow, blossom, flourish, and produce fruit that will bless us and our families in abundance (Matthew 13:.

What I like about how Jesus teaches these things is to have us focus inward to our hearts.

It does not matter if the rest of the world does or does not also believe it…but are we preparing our heart to find truth. To go on the journey. To find truth. The kind of truth that cannot be spoken or explained to someone else, but truth that is experienced, felt, believed. It is myths that Joseph Campbell spoke of, which are not of this world.

Campbell: The Buddha’s word is nirvana. Nirvana is a psychological state of mind. It’s not a place like heaven. It’s not something that’s not here. It is here in the middle of turmoil. What’s called samsarah, the whirlpool of life conditions. That Nirvana is what, is the condition that comes when you are not compelled by desire or by fear, or by social commitments, when you hold your center and act out of there.

Bill Moyers: and like all heroes, the Buddha doesn’t show you the truth, the illumination; he shows you the way to it.

Campbell:. The way. But it’s got to be your way, too. I mean, how should I get rid of fear? The Buddha can’t tell me how I’m going to do it. there are exercises that different teachers will give you, but they may not work for you. And all a teacher can do is give you a clue of the direction. He’s like a lighthouse that says there are rocks over here, and steer clear.

Our church, the prophet Joseph, Jesus…all are signs pointing you to truth. Truth that is not explained in words. You must find your own truth, regardless of the rest of the world.

It is found in the parables of Jesus, but not the parables themselves. It is found in temples and symbols and covenants and ordinances, but not by those arbitrary things. It is faith that must be walked, not studied. Felt, not thought.

We must get out of our minds, and into our hearts, or we do not find the kingdom of heaven that is within us.

Since that is the way to God, we must find our path, and may find Mormonism helps point us towards that, until Mormonism holds us back from progressing further.

Every individual must journey to find what works for us. We must prepare our hearts to receive truth, and our ears to hear, and our eyes to see.

There are so many levels of the mysteries of God, we will never find it in this world Only pursue it. And let my children, my family, friends and loved ones find their path too. Love is greater than Religion.

Because that is God’s plan for us to grow…I don’t believe He is interested in more efficient ways to convert His children to a religion that provides one answer. He is more interested in teaching them the way to find it themselves. And the way has many paths. All that are true lead to Him.

For me personally, since I don’t think prayer answers are legit, I think those feelings are from us, and we know more about what we need than we think we do. I think sometimes in life we feel a connection to something and are driven to be a part of it. Whether it’s because it makes sense to us and gives us a feeling of security, or because it tells us something we need to hear, or because it resonates with beliefs we already have from our upbringing and view of how the world works. There are just so many people who get spiritual witnesses for their religion, it doesn’t seem to have to do with which religion is true. This could work in a scenario where there is no God, or if God is very uninvolved in our lives and mostly lets our lives pan out however they will. I think both are possible. I have a hard time personally believing in a God who is loving, and all powerful, and willing to let people suffer so badly. Especially when the suffering has no point to it, pointless suffering goes against the idea of it being “for our good”. Those are my thoughts at least,

…what do you think SD, do you think that feeling you had when you felt the spirit could have been from you?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

The short answer — I’m not sure. Those powerful feelings only happened to me a couple times in my life. The first time was when I prayed to God for the first time after being taught by a minister from a protestant religion. It was very powerful. And very convincing. Faith-inducing about the existence of God.

The second time was when I asked if the LDS church was true and if I should become a member of it. It wasn’t as powerful, but it was enough.

That is why I’m agnostic about my LDS faith. As I have said before, I have great faith in my own ignorance. And that means keeping myself open just in case the LDS church is what I thought my prayer said it was.

Later evidence in my life seems to dictate otherwise. But I am not sure.

The obvious answer is the church is not as true or important as we are told.

It would be hypocrisy on the part of god to make it so important, yet it’s reach and desire to join be an obstacle to that.

Another perspective is that is bound to be very unpopular is that God’s purpose for humanity is a tiered destiny, with different levels of privilege. While God has no respecter of persons, he is also putting his children through a process where they themselves are presented with options and can decide for themselves if living in a certain tier to have certain privileges is worth the sacrifice personally for them or not. And this sacrifice that is required can come in varying forms, but all occurring naturally in life, God not being the author of all of them, but allowing them all to persist. One form can be the values that we find in conflict. For example, post-Church-members and members sometimes on the way out report that they encounter a value conflict between a belief in individual integrity and belief in integrity of covenants. In other words, is the sacrifice required for an integrity of keeping covenants at all costs worth sacrificing a perceived value of individual integrity according to modern sensibilities and definitions of that integrity? So, therefore, with those two competing values in mind, some will come down on one side, and some on the other. On the one side, some may choose to leave covenants entered into behind in order to place a higher value on one kind of integrity. While some on the other side will place a higher value on an integrity of covenants entered into, and are willing to sort of not place as high a value on the other definition of integrity. The inevitable result sometimes is pain on either side of the choice. According to a believing model, those choosing to keep covenants and who stay on that road till death will merit being in one tier, while those that chose the other choice may find themselves in another tier. This is a difficult and painful issue, but perhaps one that a God that puts his children through actual heart-wrenching choices is willing to put them through, so that they might be tested to the limit to see on which side they will find themselves, for loyalty to one definition over another. Those that do not believe in the believing model of tiers of privilege in the afterlife will place less value on the necessity of sticking with those covenants. And he allows the circumstances that lead to this conundrum to happen naturally, according to that model.

Why? Because for a believing model, integrity and loyalty and faithfulness to that which you have sworn to uphold is a value that is prized more for some reason in that model, and is rewarded in that model. And the privileges awarded in the afterlife for loyalty and faithfulness to those values is tied to that.

Since the beehive is a symbol of the restorationist religion, then one can ask, does a person value becoming a queen bee or a worker bee? Which value will the person align themselves with that is tied to the type of station in the afterlife that they value? Or, do they value a kind or definition of integrity that will inevitably cause them to be a worker bee in eternity, if it happens to be that this tier system in eternity is the reality? This type of choice may have real consequences. And it is a “choose ye this day” type of thing to determine if one cares enough for a promised reward, or if one feels strongly about one’s definition of integrity enough to possibly put that promised reward in jeopardy. Otherwise, it would seem, there is no true test of loyalty to become what one truly desires to become. Is it fair? That’s something that I don’t want to be the judge of. However, being fundamentally a believer, I have chosen the integrity of covenants personally, over whatever other type of integrity there may validly be.

Thank you Bob for providing a plausible scenario for belief. I had to read slowly to fully comprehend. 😆

I once had a bishop with a similar approach. He felt that it was about keeping promises and he even said that if he had been born in the Methodist church and had made covenants and promises of loyalty to that church then he would be Methodist still and remain so until his death. He expected to be rewarded for his integrity in keeping his promises despite any imperfections in the organizations to whom he might be loyal.

Is this what you are saying Bob? How is your approach similar? How is it different?

Not answering for Bob, but I do think this is what people are saying when missionaries knock on their doors and the people say “I was born Catholic and I’ll die Catholic” (in my mission it was Anglican). I think they’re really expressing loyalty to their own tribe – even when they don’t necessarily believe everything their tribal leaders say.

Curious as to how your bishop squared missionary work. If he projected that same level of loyalty onto people of other faiths, wouldn’t he consider it the lesser option if people of other faiths were to leave their church and join the LDS church?

I cannot know the extent of his application of this principle. I understand the question and there does seem to be a bit of a paradox if taken and applied to LDS converts. In context of my conversation with my bishop, our third child had been stillborn and it was a deep blow for DW and I. Part of the reason that this was particularly unexpected was because we paid our tithing, I honored my priesthood, and we both served in prominent callings in the church and we had come to expect blessings in return. This was the catalyst for my faith crisis.

So my bishop at the time was saying that for him, he does what he said he would do as a matter of personal integrity and honor that is independent of any anticipated rewards. The hypothetical musing about being loyal to the Methodist church if he had made promises there was an offhand comment.

But bringing this back to Bob’s scenario, I am curious if the tiered destiny presented would reward individuals (in the afterlife) for placing emphasis on loyalty and integrity to organizations other than the LDS church. In that possibility maybe it is the character trait of loyalty, integrity, and honor that God is interested in developing rather than the details.