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Is it possible to love people unconditionally when you believe that God’s love is conditioned on obedience? I don’t think it is. I think there will always be strings attached no matter how hard people try “I will truly love you when you come back to Church” or “I will fully accept you when you stop doing x.” I think that is very hard to undo when you believe that is how God views us. I think that is what makes the conflicts between orthodox believers and less active or LGBT kids so hard in our current world views. The person who has left “the covenant path” wants understanding, acceptance and unconditional love. The family tries their best to give it, but can’t fully because they can’t help but love conditionally.
I’m not sure what the answer is.
I’m not sure what the answer is either, except that we don’t all hold the view that God’s love is conditional. I know we hear it preached, including by members of the highest quorum, but I don’t believe that and I know several others here and in my own ward who don’t believe that. Wecan love unconditionally even if those around us can’t get past the paradox. I think it comes down to that in our society, love is an action completed by the other person. “If you love/like/respect/ me and/or us, I will see it by your actions”. It is easier to measure and notate this way. It has probably saved quite a few lives overall as well. It can empower the other person to take a look at their choices and the message(s) they want to send to the loving person. But in reality, love is an action completed by an individual first. Wanting to love, connect with, and serve others is a personal decision (granted it is made easier when we are like the other person, when we have a lot personally vested in the other person’s success, etc.) When my daughter is disrespectful towards me, it doesn’t displace the deep sated feelings of love I have for her (but it does overwhelm those feelings with feelings of anger, frustration, fear, and judgement). It’s expressed in the New Testament as God loving us first, and then we returning the love.
I am not sure at all that love isn’t an action at all, but a metaphorical object/ “Fruit of the Spirit” as it were. I think that there is a reason why Lehi’s dream presents it as a fruit and why that fruit is labeled symbolically as “the love of God”. The reason is to point us into a different direction of thinking about love, and the love that we hope that God has for us.
I am also thinking that we mix up “Connection with Others” and “Love”. It is easier to be nice, happy, connective, and what we call “loving” when my family members have not made baffling, anxiety-ridden choices and are not acting out of anger, fear, or shame. However, even when my family members are not in a happy, connective, loving state – that doesn’t let me immediately ditch the relationships or retaliate.
Yes, I believe in unconditional love. I see it in the eyes of my Grandchildren when they say, “I love you Grandpa”. Granted, it comes out of complete innocence. But, it is unconditional. I am not as innocent, but I’m trying really hard
to be more like their example.
I think about this concept aliot. I dont know if its right but this is what i believe. I think God does love unconditionally. I definetlly see there ore conditions that involve the church. And the people in and probably out of the church too dont nessasarally love the way God does. I do feel like people in the church do love with contions like ” Im going to love yoy and if ido maybe you will become active again”. I feel that kind of stuff alot. I just cant see God doing that. Ive menttioned my daughter bere before. Shes a young teenager and is in active in the church. She struggles with school. Both of those experiences have got me to really think about unconditional love. I really only want her to be active if she wants to. I want to love her either way. I want her to know i love her whether she struggles with school or not.
Its challenging to show that love but i really try.
I think empathy is important to show. I think God is a very empathetic person. When we are feeling mad even at him he is empatetic about it.
Im sure God is glad when my daughter is sucseful at school but he would never leave her if she wasnt.
Havefaith wrote:
I think empathy is important to show. I think God is a very empathetic person. When we are feeling mad even at him he is empatetic about it.Im sure God is glad when my daughter is sucseful at school but he would never leave her if she wasnt.
I like this a lot. One of my favorite descriptions of Jesus Christ is “Emanuel” or “God with Us”. I like to think that if God is with us, that God “gets” or completely understands all the circumstances in our lives that got us to where we are (and can even calculate the exact impact having a mortal body and mortal brain wiring and the hormones and socialization we got from our environment – all of that is perfectly weighted and accounted for) and will work with us to become better.
AmyJ wrote:
Havefaith wrote:
I think empathy is important to show. I think God is a very empathetic person. When we are feeling mad even at him he is empatetic about it.Im sure God is glad when my daughter is sucseful at school but he would never leave her if she wasnt.
I like this a lot. One of my favorite descriptions of Jesus Christ is “Emanuel” or “God with Us”. I like to think that if God is with us, that God “gets” or completely understands all the circumstances in our lives that got us to where we are (and can even calculate the exact impact having a mortal body and mortal brain wiring and the hormones and socialization we got from our environment – all of that is perfectly weighted and accounted for) and will work with us to become better.
One good thing is that even though suffering is horrific when we are going through it, it is always a temporary state. It will always end at some point.
SamBee wrote:
AmyJ wrote:
Havefaith wrote:
I think empathy is important to show. I think God is a very empathetic person. When we are feeling mad even at him he is empatetic about it.Im sure God is glad when my daughter is sucseful at school but he would never leave her if she wasnt.
I like this a lot. One of my favorite descriptions of Jesus Christ is “Emanuel” or “God with Us”. I like to think that if God is with us, that God “gets” or completely understands all the circumstances in our lives that got us to where we are (and can even calculate the exact impact having a mortal body and mortal brain wiring and the hormones and socialization we got from our environment – all of that is perfectly weighted and accounted for) and will work with us to become better.
One good thing is that even though suffering is horrific when we are going through it, it is always a temporary state. It will always end at some point.
I agree that that can be very comforting as well.
However, I like to believe that God’s empathy is not limited to just sorrowing times. I like to think that God will be with me on the platforms of personal success – and can count the costs of what it actually completely really took (in terms of personal choices and resources AND in terms of both public and private costs) to get there.
I don’t know how it all works out. We might very well be like my 3 year old who insists on putting on her clothes by herself in her own way and then runs up to me to let me know and appreciate that accomplishment with her – needing both the independence and lack of interference and the applauds/recognition/connection with me that allows me to “be with her” in the experience of getting dressed. Perhaps part of the path of walking with God means being independent and not having interference to do stuff while being able to communicate with God to connect and get God’s recognition/approval of our actions.
And actually, that might be the best way developmentally anyways. My 3 year old is not going to learn to dress herself without personal practice. At the same time she is learning about the physical action of dressing herself, she is learning how to emotionally connect, communicate, and engage with me.
I’ve never heard it taught that God’s love is conditional. I think it’s precisely the opposite. That doesn’t mean that God is equally satisfiedwith how we’re all doing, but I truly believe He loves everyone equally. AmyJ wrote:
Havefaith wrote:
I think empathy is important to show. I think God is a very empathetic person. When we are feeling mad even at him he is empatetic about it.Im sure God is glad when my daughter is sucseful at school but he would never leave her if she wasnt.
I like this a lot. One of my favorite descriptions of Jesus Christ is “Emanuel” or “God with Us”. I like to think that if God is with us, that God “gets” or completely understands all the circumstances in our lives that got us to where we are (and can even calculate the exact impact having a mortal body and mortal brain wiring and the hormones and socialization we got from our environment – all of that is perfectly weighted and accounted for) and will work with us to become better.
I also like this.
I believe God’s love is unconditional, and God is love. I think there is a difference between God loving us and us feeling God’s love because we process it through our minds and understanding and our feelings…so much is going on inside us that impacts how we can tap into the unconditional love that is there for us.
I think I love my children unconditionally. That doesn’t mean I send them support money unconditionally.
Maybe one reason I believe God’s love is unconditional to me is that I don’t believe God sends it to me specific to my situation, and I’m not sure how involved he is in my life. Kind of like the rays of the sun are unconditional. The sun is there to radiate light and heat. Where I put myself determines if I feel it and see it. The sun isn’t sending it to me specifically so I can live…it just is. What I make of the sun and where I put myself to feel it is conditional on my choices.
I think if we want God’s love, we have to align our will to His will. That isn’t manipulative or controlling. It just is how things work, and we journey to figure that out. God cannot stop loving us if we sin, any more than the sun can stop sending light to the earth even if we hide in a cave.
It is not dependent on what we do. But how we experience it is.
The quote isn’t that God’s love is conditional, in the classic sense of how that would be interpreted. He said receiving the blessings of God’s love is conditional, when you read the quote for what it obviously meant. That absolutely is consistent with the Bible, including the Gospels. I both agree and disagree with that idea, since it is a complicated issue (and I do not believe in Biblical inerrancy, but it is important to me to understand what people mean rather than the summaries people often create.
I had an experience that might be described as revelation that told me that I was loved and accepted in the same way that my stillborn daughter is loved and accepted. (It might be worth noting that the majority of people that report such experiences describe feeling loved) We have a teaching that children are not accountable for their actions until they reach the age of 8. I, on the other hand, am a very flawed adult with sins of both commission and omission. How do I square that?
It is unfortunate that our LDS leaders have waged a type of war against “unconditional love.” What, really, is to be gained by trying to convince people that maybe some people are loved by God more than others?
There is a wonderful BCC blog post that takes aim at this problem.
Quote:Here is what President Nelson should have said: “Yes, God unconditionally loves you. But he doesn’t unconditionally approve of your behavior, or unconditionally bless you.”
See how easy that was? See how clear it is? It’s completely accurate doctrinally, and it is unlikely to confuse anyone. Problem solved.
Elder Rasband in 2015 hit on this same balance:
Quote:Now, if I could leave one small message with you today, it would be this: the Lord has said, “Love one another; as I have loved you.” I’m confident that there is no choice, sin, or mistake that you or anyone else can make that will change His love for you or for them. That does not mean He excuses or condones sinful conduct—I’m sure He does not—but it does mean we are to reach out to our fellowman in love to invite, persuade, serve, and rescue. Jesus Christ looked past people’s ethnicity, rank, and circumstances in order to teach them this profound truth.
I think that Elder Rasband had to say “there is no choice, sin, or mistake that you or anyone else can make that will change His love for you or for them” instead of saying “unconditional love” because of the way that “unconditional” word has been attacked by current President RMN and next in line DHO.
Here’s how I look at it (more from a Social Disability Model – I’m going to be up front about that). From a “Worth” perspective – “Worthiness” is off the table. I am “worth” all the good things, you are “worth” all the good things, etc. – full stop.
From an “Accessibility” perspective, the choices I make expand and constrict the complete list of choices available to me.
If I bring my sunglasses and headphones, I may be able to relate to, to “access” the environment better. If my husband is having a bad day, the handicapped parking placard removes some additional walking so he can access that space more easily.
It isn’t a “worthiness” issue. We are “worth” having sunglasses and handicapped parking. Yes, my “ability to access” bid is smaller because sunglasses are cheap and require no external supports (well the price of the external supports is more indirect and likely based in China, but that is a different conversation).
My husband’s case is “needs based” (do you really need this?) which is different then “worthiness based” – and humans do sometimes give us the side eye because it is unclear whether my husband “needs the placard” these days.
Unconditional LoveOur cultures pay attention to tying “Access” and “Worth” together – you have to be “worthy of” and “qualify for” accommodations that should innately be there. The LDS doctrine says “Worth first, then you have Access to God” as the default script – and then goes silent in the areas where “Access to God – Worth is defined by existence actually happens”.
We also get a little skittish about those “Grace First – Worth Not Required” denominations because doctrinally “they chose the wrong side” on the “Faith vs Works” debate.
The story that is informing a lot of my decision-making these days is the blind man and his parents.
The onlookers and rabble-rousers ask the pointed question, “Who did sin?” They are looking for an excuse to put themselves above the blind man and his parents because those outsiders are not dealing with the blindness. They wanted to find some party at the table “worthy of contempt”. Jesus answered, “Neither” –
I think he was saying that neither the blind son nor his parents was “worthy of being held in contempt”. He is taking “Worthiness” off the table.He expanded on the answer with the gist of “that the Glory of God may be made Manifest”.
He takes their bid to hold the son and/or the parents in contempt, shows it as unfounded, and throws the question back to the people to hope in God, to consider whether they can “access God” more easily because of interacting with the blind son and/or his parents.
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