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I just want to make a few comments on Elder Bednar’s BYU Devotional speech. I had gotten to the point where I could think of DAB as having a very, but harmless, black-n-white view of everything. I had gotten to where I was OK with DAB. That’s really changed over the last few months of his being the ‘enforcer’ for “religious freedom” in the face of the pandemic. Some of his comments follow the tried-and-true approach of ignore logic and have faith, and you’ll be better for it. The summary of his talk at LDS Newsroom (lds.org):
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-bednar-temple-miracles-covid-19 The full talk:
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/david-a-bednar/world-shall-stand/ The tagline supplied by LDS Newsroom:
Quote:“No pandemic can keep the Lord’s holy work from progressing,” the Apostle says at a Brigham Young University devotional
Miracles associated with ignoring the the public good in times of pandemic:
Quote:
Elder Bednar told BYU students that the power to endure hardship for those [pioneer] Latter-day Saints came from their faith in Jesus Christ and the immeasurable blessings of worship within temples—what Brigham Young called the “fire of the covenant.”…
Elder Bednar pointed to miracles experienced by Latter-day Saints in the second week of November 2020 in several temples in North America. On November 10, government officials in a large jurisdiction announced a new wave of pandemic-induced restrictions that would be implemented three days later and would suspend religious gatherings for a minimum of three weeks.
Wanting to give as many people as possible the opportunity to worship in temples before they closed, these temple leaders prayerfully decided to keep their temples operating — doors open, lights on, night and day, nonstop — until they would close on Friday, November 13, at midnight. Making this around-the-clock operation a reality would require meticulous planning and ample volunteers from local Latter-day Saints.
Elder Bednar shared comments from eight Church members that give insight into what they viewed as the miraculous nature of that 72-hour period inside these temples.
Some described miracles in making appointments for so many people in so little time. “When I started calling patrons … I completely expected to leave messages,” one person said. “Almost everyone answered their phone. To me, [this was] a miracle. Almost all available time slots were filled in less than a day and a half.”
“There was miracle after miracle,” another said, “miracles in scheduling, miracles in obtaining necessary paperwork to have ordinances [rites and ceremonies] completed, miracles in having one available appointment time precisely at the only time a patron was able to come.”
Others spoke of the look reflected on the faces of those who, instead of being weary from serving all night and morning, were miraculously full of joy and light.
“As I arrived at the temple on Thursday morning around 5:00 a.m., I saw ordinance workers who had served all night long still smiling as they served,” one person said. “One brother stayed at the temple day and night, not going home for three days. His service was invaluable and needed in so many ways.”
Several noted the deep connection they felt with the early Saints of Nauvoo.
“There are many challenges and experiences we face in life, and sometimes [we] wonder if we are or ever do ‘enough,’” one person said. “Some of them are once in a lifetime that we read about or hear that someone else has experienced. Serving in the temple during the middle of the night, as the Nauvoo pioneers of old, was one of those treasured once-in-a-lifetime opportunities. Our entire shift [of volunteers in the temple] was in awe of the light that shone in the eyes of the patrons that came and their gratitude and touched by the sacrifice and the privilege it was for us as workers to serve them in this way.”
…
“The mighty miracles in our lives are exactly the same today as they always have been for devoted disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ,” Elder Bednar said. “The identical spirit that drew Latter-day Saints to the temple in Nauvoo clearly was at work in November of last year. And it is operating today and will continue into the future. The day of miracles has not ceased.”
“No unhallowed hand and no pandemic can keep the Lord’s holy work from progressing,” he concluded. He promised Latter-day Saints that “as you honor your covenants and strive to discern with ‘an eye of faith’ (Ether 12:19), your spiritual vision will be magnified and refined to help you learn that the seemingly small miracles in your life will be mightiest and most impactful of all.”
I think it is irresponsible for DAB to talk about going to the temple in large numbers, and even with extended hours to beat the “a new wave of pandemic-induced restrictions that would be implemented three days later and would suspend religious gatherings for a minimum of three weeks.”
While the FP/Q12 may be encouraging vaccination through their words, DAB points to these Church actions that support recklessness (but recklessness done in the name of faith) WRT the Pandemic. He celebrates what is essentially a maximum-attendance-possible approach to some temples in North America for a 72-hour stretch without stopping. And the timing! This was all done just two weeks before Thanksgiving, which was already on the radar as a probable disaster for the spread (which it turned out to be). The holidays had a clear impact on the spread of the virus, and no-doubt this pre-holiday temple-spreading event contributed to it among the LDS ‘faithful’ and their friends.
It’s also not really a good comparison between now and Nauvoo. In Nauvoo, Temple ordinances were administered in a flurry, so that the Saints could leave Nauvoo by the agreed-upon time in the Spring (they mostly left earlier, btw). But there was no extra danger to them or to their neighbors in this worship. In modern times, the point of restrictions is to slow the spread of this killer illness to give time for a vaccine to be developed. With all that we have gone through, we’ve still lost as many Americans as we did in WWII, and it would have been far far worse without restrictions and masks. The action of the Church in ignoring the Pandemic as much as allowed by law, and thereby endangering the members and their neighbors is not like Nauvoo.
You know… I think the Church could have had a message for its members that rather than just keep doing what you have always been doing the best you can, instead, shift focus to do something you normally can’t, and we’ll get back to the doing what you have always done as soon as we can. Like, maybe take the time to read and ponder(ize) the NT or seek more personal spirituality or something like that. But, no, DAB’s approach (spoiler: it’s us-vs-them) is that the Government is exercising unrighteous dominion over our faith, so stick it to them by ratcheting up your faith… we are going to complain, but we are going to meet the letter of the law (though, not its spirit) and that’s how we are going to be better people, even if there are fewer of us, and fewer of our neighbors because of the pandemic. Hey, at least when we die from Covid, we’ll go to Paradise, unlike our neighbors, who will go to Spirit Prison, because they didn’t accept the invitation to come to GC last year. It’s their fault, really.
Bottom line: I usually go out of my way to give the Church a generous view… to assume good intentions… to give benefit of the doubt. With DAB, in particular, I’ve worked to be more accepting of him in the recent past, because I believe he’s a good person at-heart, who is an overly-simplistic theologian. I try to do this because I think it’s usually better for me. But this talk is reprehensible, IMO, and I’m struggling to find the generous view. Words matter, and in this case, DAB’s words are fuel for the fire, not balm for the soul.
On Own Now wrote:
I think it is irresponsible for DAB to talk about going to the temple in large numbers, and even with extended hours to beat the “a new wave of pandemic-induced restrictions that would be implemented three days later and would suspend religious gatherings for a minimum of three weeks.”
Three weeks. Three. I believe Russell Nelson would say that they were being myopic. Eternity awaits, what’s three weeks?
Bednar also made comments back in June of 2020 about religious freedoms as they relate to covid restrictions. He drew comparisons between the allowed activity of filling your car up with gas and the prohibited activity of mass indoor gatherings. He said, “While believers and their religious organizations must be good citizens in a time of crisis, never again can we allow government officials to treat the exercise of religion as simply nonessential. Never again must the fundamental right to worship God be trivialized below the ability to buy gasoline.”
It’s lamentable how the main things we want to do with our religious freedoms above anything else are:
1) Prevent gay people from getting married.
2) Undermine efforts to keep a pandemic under control.
The church built up a lot of good will with me in the beginning stages of the pandemic. We shut things down. We reminded ourselves of the Zoramites and how it’s not required to meet in a church to connect with god. We pat ourselves on the back for the inspired theme “home centered, church supported” that was introduced before the pandemic.
Then I think people became fatigued from putting life on hold, some politics took over, and church leaders became increasingly worried about the future health of the
organization. That’s led to today where we’re ignoring official indoor gathering restrictions to hold sacrament meetings and there’s a building pressure to get things back to business as usual… right at the very height of the health crisis. At least in my area, don’t know about others. It’s more than erased any good will I had built up and it’s eroded my trust. I doubt I’ll be going back to in-person church in 2021. I can’t trust the organizational church or the people attending.
On the other hand, I get it. People are trying to feel their way forward, wondering how they can do the things they’d like to do in a safe manner. Especially if people believe the alternative is to never do activity xyz ever again.
But here with a light at the end of the tunnel (vaccine) it doesn’t make much sense to throw the sacrifices away. Sunk cost? Maybe.
This quote comes from the Church Handbook: Quote:Seeking Information from Reliable Sources
In today’s world, information is easy to access and share. This can be a great blessing for those seeking to be educated and informed. However, many sources of information are unreliable and do not edify. Some sources seek to promote anger, contention, fear, or baseless conspiracy theories (see 3 Nephi 11:30; Mosiah 2:32). Therefore, it is important that Church members be wise as they seek truth.
Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor. The guidance of the Holy Ghost, along with careful study, can help members discern between truth and error (see Doctrine and Covenants 11:12; 45:57). In matters of doctrine and Church policy, the authoritative sources are the scriptures, the teachings of the living prophets, and the General Handbook.
Does this quote contradict what Elder Bednar is saying?
To me, temple work can be a spiritual & rewarding experience. I would hate to see members attending the temple expecting a miracle & in the
process wind up in the ICU. Or, infect someone else.
That new entry to the handbook is… interesting. Don’t most people believe that their source of information is reliable and it’s the other person’s information source that’s unreliable? If people realized their information source was unreliable wouldn’t they naturally look elsewhere?
I think this is an example of Bednar’s personal opinions coming through. It’s an opinion I disagree with, but unfortunately it’s not that uncommon. Though I agree that it’s irresponsible to praise actions that went against the public good during a pandemic. I think some members have this idea of “martyrdom,” or suffering/sacrificing in this life for a better afterlife. In the church we always like to talk about the sacrifices of the pioneers. How often do we hear about the great faith and miracles surrounding the handcart pioneers, versus the poor decisions that led to many of them dying attempting to cross in the winter? So even if a bunch of people ended up getting COVID from going to the temple, many would still see it as a faith-promoting story of doing the Lord’s work in spite of obstacles.
I just wish instead of sacrificing by potentially getting more people sick in order to do temple work, we could sacrifice our in-person activities for the cause of getting the pandemic under control.
nibbler wrote:
That new entry to the handbook is… interesting.Don’t most people believe that their source of information is reliable and it’s the other person’s information source that’s unreliable? If people realized their information source was unreliable wouldn’t they naturally look elsewhere?
Yes, I think so. But from a certain point of view (of very orthodox and conservative members) Bednar
isa reliable source because he is none less than a prophet (fortunately not theprphet yet – but that day will likely come). Like OON, I have been willing to give Bednar a break in the past. Like the others, I think he is a good person trying to do what’s right and I agree he has a very black/white literal view of things. He has said some decent stuff in the past regarding ministering to the individual (before ministering was a thing in the church). I gave up on him a couple years ago. In my life I have met some very intelligent but uneducated people. I have also met some very educated but unintelligent people. Most fall somewhere between, but DAB is is of the unintelligent variety. Of all my favorites in the Q15, he ranks 15th.
Arrakeen wrote:
I think some members have this idea of “martyrdom,” or suffering/sacrificing in this life for a better afterlife. In the church we always like to talk about the sacrifices of the pioneers. How often do we hear about the great faith and miracles surrounding the handcart pioneers, versus the poor decisions that led to many of them dying attempting to cross in the winter? So even if a bunch of people ended up getting COVID from going to the temple, many would still see it as a faith-promoting story of doing the Lord’s work in spite of obstacles.
Or, God will always protect us if we follow His commandments. Or, nothing can prevail against us when we serve God in the Temple.
Back to my question: does Bro Bendnar’s talk contradict the General Handbook? I believe it does. If I would of used this language in a Sacrament
talk, I probably would of been reprimanded. Yes, no, maybe?
My takeaways from Bednar’s comments: Miracles are in the eye of the beholder. The ability to reschedule appointments, spending all-nighters in the temple, and having an easier time than normal with ordinance bureaucracy doesn’t rise to the level of miracle for me; especially when the downside of not experiencing the miracle is a three week delay. I’m a cynical curmudgeon though. It’s a miracle for the people that want or need it to be a miracle. I’m fine with that.
The issue as I see it is one of priority. Bednar’s miracles are the result of people prioritizing church over public health (IMO). Even though the stories he shared are presented as miracles (extra-ordinary), I believe that sharing these types of faith promoting stories has an unintended consequence of setting unhealthy expectations for all members. Maybe this miracle story only exists because of unhealthy expectations that already existed for the people that pulled all-nighters at the temple.
Minyan Man,
My comments above are entirely focused on the story Bednar shared. I think it was meant as a faith promoting story, even if it downplays health risks during a pandemic. Was there something in particular that Bednar said that you feel is against the new policy in the handbook? I’m not challenging the claim, I’m just saying that I miss things all the time.
The policy says, “Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor.” Here I take issue with some things the church itself says because so many of our faith promoting stories embellish on and whitewash the actual events all in service of increasing testimony in the church.
nibbler wrote:
Miracles are in the eye of the beholder. The ability to reschedule appointments, spending all-nighters in the temple, and having an easier time than normal with ordinance bureaucracy doesn’t rise to the level of miracle for me; especially when the downside of not experiencing the miracle is a three week delay. I’m a cynical curmudgeon though. It’s a miracle for the people that want or need it to be a miracle. I’m fine with that.
For me there are miracles (aka tender mercies) and there are Miracles. I can appreciate the positive optimism of feeling that God intervenes in your behalf on mundane issues just to show that He cares – like leaving a metaphorical sticky note saying “I see you” and “your effort matters.” I appreciate that this mindset can increase levels of gratitude generally. However, I believe that calling these things miracles tends to devalue and trivialize the definition of the word “miracle”.
Quote:“The mighty miracles in our lives are exactly the same today as they always have been for devoted disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ,” Elder Bednar said. “[snip] The day of miracles has not ceased.”
The miracles of the sort described in this report are “exactly the same” as the miracles experienced by disciples and prophets in Bible and BoM times? Really? That seems like a pretty big let down of what happened in former times. Maybe the miracles that we have recorded in scripture had been exaggerated for dramatic effect.
Roy wrote:
For me there are miracles (aka tender mercies) and there are Miracles. I can appreciate the positive optimism of feeling that God intervenes in your behalf on mundane issues just to show that He cares – like leaving a metaphorical sticky note saying “I see you” and “your effort matters.” I appreciate that this mindset can increase levels of gratitude generally. However, I believe that calling these things miracles tends to devalue and trivialize the definition of the word “miracle”.
This is my point if view as well. I had pancreatic cancer yesterday and today I don’t is a Miracle (note this is hypothetical, I have not had pancreatic or any other cancer). My facility closed and I was transferred to another facility that didn’t necessarily have an opening for me
mightqualify as a tender mercy or small m miracle (this actually did happen to me). I arrived home safely driving in a snow storm is probably neither – most of the rest of the people who drove with care also arrived safely at home. I further agree that calling small things that are not miracles Miracles diminishes from real Miracles. I do see Nibbler’s point that if someone wants to believe something is a miracle for them, then who am I to detract from that? However, just because you see something as a miracle doesn’t mean I have to see it the same way, nevertheless I also don’t have to point out my disagreement just like I don’t have to tell you I think you’re stupid even if I do think you’re stupid and/or you are in fact stupid. nibbler wrote:
Minyan Man,My comments above are entirely focused on the story Bednar shared. I think it was meant as a faith promoting story, even if it downplays health risks during a pandemic. Was there something in particular that Bednar said that you feel is against the new policy in the handbook? I’m not challenging the claim, I’m just saying that I miss things all the time.
The policy says, “Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor.” Here I take issue with some things the church itself says because so many of our faith promoting stories embellish on and whitewash the actual events all in service of increasing testimony in the church.
Nibbler, please disregard my remarks. I agree with your comments. I think I am not in the mood for faith promoting stories that strengthen my faith.
Maybe I am too sensitive about what is happening in my state & community with the Covid virus to be objective.
I have had family members & friends come down with the virus. Fortunately no one had to go to the hospital yet.
In our community, schools & some small businesses are beginning to open up. Restaurants & other businesses are
limiting how many can enter. Church services are still virtual. Members are communicating by telephone. I understand
from news reports in our area, there has been an increase in mental & emotional illnesses. There has been an increase
in suicides & addictions to drugs & alcohol.
I’m sorry for the detour.
Minyan Man wrote:
Maybe I am too sensitive about what is happening in my state & community with the Covid virus to be objective.
I’m right there with you.
Minyan Man wrote:
I’m sorry for the detour.
No worries whatsoever. Some of the best views are to be had off the beaten path.
My sentiments are in line with James E Talmage’s 1919 assessment of that pandemic. Quote:There is every evidence of a very serious recrudescence of the influence trouble, there there is a manifest disinclination on the part of the newspapers to publish the full facts. This is said to be the result of pressure brought upon the papers by the business men, who insist that the enforced suspension of public assemblies and free business operations is bringing to them a loss that cannot be longer endured. Lives are being sacrificed in the interest of dollars.
While the physicians freely admit that the present scourge is a mystery disease, they are all agreed upon the fact that it is spread by contact, and that close assemblies are the principal means of communication. Today we have to mourn the departure of Bishop Edwin F. Sheets, Bishop of 33rd Ward, Liberty Stake, and Secretary of the General Board of Religion Classes. His wife and two children became infected with the influenza, and he contracted it in waiting upon them. He was one of our most useful men, and is cut off in the very prime of his activity, a victim of the dread scourge that is sweeping the land
Elder Talmage then went on to chronicle the temporary restrictions on Church meetings, w/o any cries of alarm. It’s as if he knew that temporary health measures weren’t any kind of attack on religion (they actually proceeded a century of strong growth of the Church).
ref:
https://cdm15999.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15999coll20/id/55215 ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://cdm15999.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15999coll20/id/55215 Thanks for sharing. 100 years and the debate hasn’t changed that much.
It would be interesting to know whether Bednar’s voice is in the minority (but amplified due to his status in the community) or the majority. Whether he’s in the majority or minority would also change depending on which group we’re talking about. Members of the church, Christians in general, or the general populace.
At church I hear a lot of grumbling about religious freedom but for the most part people are willing to comply. That said, we’ve ignored the recent surge and ignored a governor’s order to limit indoor gatherings. There are exceptions for religions to the governor’s order but it goes back to OON’s letter of the law vs. spirit of the law.
I have wondered if Bednar is going rogue on the Q15. This isn’t his first comment on the pandemic, he had earlier commented on religious freedom and something to the effect “If they can stop us from worshiping what else can they do?” Oaks used to be the champion of religious freedom but he seems to have been silent on this aspect (unless I’ve missed it). Honestly I think the top leadership has had an exemplary to COVID – they shut down early and completely and we’re about to have our third virtual GC. (Local mileage varies as it does with everything in leadership roulette.) I do think Bednar’s opinions are consistent with some other conservative religious organizations and some conservatives in general. What I don’t hear is anyone else in the Q15 talking about those things. Didn’t one of them (Christofferson?) say something fairly recently about if they’re all talking about something it’s something they’ve agreed upon but if it’s only one of them it’s probably just his personal opinion?
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