Faith or Not

I guess it depends on your concept or definition of faith. My own is probably more basic than most members of the church. Mostly I simply believe that God loves us and that the Savior can do what we believe he can do – redeem us from our sins. Beyond that, I have no expectations of faith. I do some things because of my faith not because I expect something from my faith.

FWIW, I do believe that faith can move mountains – but you’re going to need a pickax and shovel.

If we are going to define faith as something to make us feel good or perhaps the ability to change who we are then I am onboard. Faith essentially becomes a form of positive thinking. I have faith I can lose weight or something like that. This does not preclude divine intervention but it does not rely on it either. Perhaps that is why Mormons or religious people in general are always thanking god for the smallest of occurrences. There is no evidence he did intervene but there is nothing to say he did not.

It is however a watered down version of faith. Perhaps it is the only faith that is viable, since faith in divine intervention is beyond our control and rarely if ever happens.

It would be wonderful to see some old style faith. Something you could attribute to God. Something truly miraculous. Something beyond what we could ever individually or as a group accomplish on our own.

If we are going to define faith as something to make us feel good or perhaps the ability to change who we are then I am onboard.

“We can feel enduring joy when our Savior and His gospel become the framework around which we build our lives.”

– Elder Terence M. Vinson, “True Disciples of the Savior”, October 2019

I do not look to faith to perform miracles. As described in this quote by Elder Vinson, the gospel provides a framework for living. I believe that having stability and structure in life helps to generally increase quality of life and increase feelings of security and hopefulness. I would describe the word faith as the motivating factor that drives people to build their life around this framework. They do not do it to receive the more mundane benefits I have described. They do it because they believe God asks them to and/or that God will reward them after death – this is faith. It just so happens to be really good at building cohesive communities.

Faith on an individual level also helps give individuals a sense of purpose. Having purpose and meaning are important components in levels of happiness.

In general, I think we are on the same page. I am not seeing any miracles but I do enjoy rubbing shoulders with my fellow “Saints” and I believe generally that their faith has made them better people than they otherwise would be.

There was a time where faith played an important part in my life. I would try to exercise faith to know things or to understand things beyond my knowledge. Although I still think it is important to believe you can accomplish things or gain knowledge, I would not call it faith anymore. Faith requires some element of the supernatural. An outside force is going to intervene to effect an outcome or provide an answer.

To have faith as we currently understand it causes me concern. To believe in faith tells me God is arbitrary, intervening for lost toys yet not for much more important things. You could argue God only intervenes when it is important, but that is still an arbitrary decision.

My lack of faith in supernatural forces intervening has forced me to move in the direction of there being no intervention, except in the raresest of rare circumstances where not intervening effects the very existence of the universe. Or maybe God is only able to act on very small things like lost toys. since doing so has little impact on the big picture, thus not causing a disruption in the big plan.

I wish it were true that you could effect outcome by faith, but to many times I have been disappointed that I can not seem to muster up that old style faith anymore. Mental focus and discipline seem to work better to sort out problems than seeking divine intervention, at least for me.

Maybe some of you have a different experience, maybe faith has actually moved a mountain so to speak. I would be interested in how you apply faith to accomplish something more than you can do on your own.

Candence,

Hebrews 11:1 – Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Substance in this means assurance. That is also clarified in the Joseph Smith translation.

I can understand where you are coming from, that God seems/tends to only intervenes when convenient. But have you ever thought that asking for His help, or in other words, only asking Him when you needed His help at that only instance? I think everyone, myself included, sometimes are only asking for God’s help because it is only convenient for us at that very time that we desperately need it. I cannot speak for everyone though, because we are all in different situations, trials, experiences. But, faith has always had the same definition, as clearly explained in Alma 32:21: Faith is a not having a perfect knowledge of things.

Without faith in Christ, we cannot expect to see Him again. Faith is endurance, believing that He will help us in any way that he can.

I recommend reading Hebrews 11, to show the stories of faith that occurred throughout the Bible.

Hebrews 11:40 (last verse): God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

JST of the word God in verse 40: God having provided some better things for them through their sufferings, for without sufferings they could not be made perfect.

We cannot be made perfect if we haven’t suffered. And we cannot endure our sufferings without having faith in Jesus Christ.

I hope this helps. The journey here on earth has its ups and downs, but all God asks of us is that constant faith, that constant reassurance that we do believe in the plan, that we believe in Him and that we will do our best.

You are where I am also. I would suggest that you are moving on to a more mature faith, a much more higher intelligence based faith. The other pray-to-win type was comfortable for you, but now the question is, can you handle this new faith? It actually requires MORE faith to say “ I don’t understand it, but I’m in”.

I have stopped questioning it and started accepting that there is nothing wrong with this faith. Maybe it’s from seeing so many scams involving religion, or so many fake people at church who profess the pray-for-lost-toys stuff, I don’t know, but it’s not enough for me. And how can that be a bad thing if you still believe that HF exists.

We’re not in Primary anymore, this is real life with real struggles! I think you are echoing what many of us feel and know to be true.

But have you ever thought that asking for His help, or in other words, only asking Him when you needed His help at that only instance? I think everyone, myself included, sometimes are only asking for God’s help because it is only convenient for us at that very time that we desperately need it.

I’m a little confused by this. Should people be asking for god’s help when they don’t need it?

Considering things from god’s perspective… if someone asks for help all the time I may begin to ignore the requests, “What is it now???” If someone rarely asks for help and one day they ask, I might pay a little more attention, “They never ask for anything, this must be something serious.”

Of course in contrast to that there’s always, “You only want to talk when you need something from me.”

You don’t have to ask help for personal purposes only. You can ask help for others And I think you missed my stance. I am saying that we shouldn’t just ask for help when we have neglected Him, have not been abiding by His teachings, or just asking for help without an effort on our part.

I agree that, ideally, we shouldn’t “just” ask during those times – but I have no problem with anyone asking at any time. We don’t live in an ideal.

I would rather they ask than not ask. God can decide how to respond.