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February 22, 2020 at 5:50 pm #212839
Anonymous
GuestI found this recent posting interesting. Is this a coming trend of the Church to be more open concerning it’s finances? I hope so.
February 23, 2020 at 4:32 am #338779Anonymous
GuestThanks. The numbers shared are interesting, and I am glad they were shared.
February 23, 2020 at 7:13 pm #338780Anonymous
GuestThis is a nice article. I had read the transcript of the actual remarks and what I like about this article is that it consolidates and summarizes what was said. This info was presented much more haphazardly in the actual interview. That said, I don’t think anyone argues that it doesn’t take money to run the church. I think a good segment of the membership has never really thought about what the money is actually spent on, and this is good in that respect. I don’t know that there were any major surprises for me, except perhaps how much it costs to run the church’s universities – but see below.
Here are some of my observations where we weren’t really told the whole story, and again, I don’t think the general membership gives it a bunch of thought:
Quote:Missionary Work: The Church funds 399 missions as well as the travel and health care expenses of 67,695 missionaries.
There is funding for mission presidents, offices (many of which are now located in existing church buildings), travel, etc. that does not come from the $500 per month those 67,695* missionaries pay (67,695×500=33,847,500). A chunk of that money does not come from tithing, it comes from the missionaries/parents and those who donate to missionary funds via tithing slips (based on my experience in the clerk’s office that’s more than most people probably think). (*I do realize that missionaries outside the US/Canada and some of Europe do not pay $500/mo and a good chunk of them pay $0 – it is my understanding that money comes from the aforementioned general missionary fund or local missionary funds.)
Quote:Higher Education: The Church’s five universities and colleges, which educate 90,000 students, operate at a cost of $1.5 billion a year paid for by tuition and tithing.
In fairness, tuition is mentioned and it would seem that tuition could not cover all of the $1.5 billion. I currently have two children at BYU, tuition is $5620** not including spring/summer and there are about 33,500 students at Provo and that is a somewhat small percentage ($188,270,000). Tuition is slightly lower at the other institutions and their enrollment is also smaller. But wait, there’s more, particularly at Provo. There are also donors, some of them very large donors. Again, yes, that’s a big price tag and yes, tithing pays for some of it – but not by any means all of it. (**Tuition for non-members is double that, but there are very few non-members who choose to go there.)
Quote:Religious Education: Seminaries and Institutes of Religion provide religious education through 50,000 teachers to more than 800,000 teens and college students around the world.
And outside Utah, almost all of those teachers are unpaid (called). Yes, it does cost for those that are paid but we don’t know how many that includes (but most certainly the vast majority are unpaid). Materials also cost.
Quote:Family History Work: The Church allocates resources to obtain and produce searchable records.
Again, the vast majority of the labor is unpaid.
Quote:$1 billion annually is provided by the Church for humanitarian and welfare aid.
Yes, I am being critical and nit picky, and $1 billion is a hefty sum and is likely unmatched by (m)any humanitarian causes. That’s still only 1% of the reserve. I think people would like to see less money spent on lavishment in temples and more spent on humanitarian needs, not to mention welfare needs which some local church leaders can sometimes be very stingy with.
February 23, 2020 at 9:29 pm #338781Anonymous
GuestDarkJedi wrote:
Yes, I am being critical and nit picky, and $1 billion is a hefty sum and is likely unmatched by (m)any humanitarian causes. That’s still only 1% of the reserve. I think people would like to see less money spent on lavishment in temples and more spent on humanitarian needs, not to mention welfare needs which some local church leaders can sometimes be very stingy with.
I noticed that humanitarian causes also includes fast offerings. I am glad that this was disclosed.
I also have some comments on this article (linked above) covering the same interview.
Quote:They did not confirm whether that amount was accurate, but they said they expect leaner economic times
Neither confirmation nor denial of the $100 billion figure but the comments from Presiding Bishop Gérald Caussé and his counselors, Bishop Dean M. Davies and Bishop W. Christopher Waddell did confirm that the church is running a tithing surplus that it chooses to invest in securities the Ensign Peak (also that this investment fund has grown very large).Quote:Bishop Caussé said the size of the fund is a proper backstop for the church’s full breadth and depth of operation.
I suppose that is a matter of opinion. I myself am intensely frugal and diligently save money towards retirement or a rainy day fund. I have asked myself how much would be enough? Would one million be enough? Because I do not know what the future holds 1M may be enough or it may not be enough depending on what happens to the financial markets between now and the time that I need the money. I can be sympathetic that the church feels uneasy about the future and has set up a habit of squirreling away for a rainy day.Quote:The church is educating 880,500 students through its seminary and institutes program, universities and Pathway program.
We have had good discussions here about Pathways. It is a wonderful program especially for those that have very few options for higher education. I believe that pathways is a great example of the church using its resources for good.
Quote:“We have an obligation to the members of the church who pay their tithes and offerings to make sure that is going to organizations or areas that will actually meet a need,” Bishop Waddell said. “The members of the church have a right to trust that it’s going to be managed and handled well and not just thrown at issues.”
“We [the church] have an obligation to the members” … “The members of the church have a right to trust” …
This was refreshing. I do not think that we hear about the rights of members and the obligation of the church to its members often enough. I think it is not too much of a leap to take this same reasoning and apply it to public financial statements. Maybe that will happen at some point.
Quote:“They pay their tithing because it’s a commandment, and they are encouraged to, if they only have enough money to pay tithing or eat, ‘Pay your tithing and we’ll help with food,’ because the blessings that are associated with the payment of tithing will then be theirs, and they won’t go hungry, because we have the ability to assist them now.”
This is perhaps the most direct promise of financial assistance to tithing payers that I have seen. “Pay your tithing and we’ll help with food”
Quote:Bishop Caussé called it an act of faith to pay tithing and receive fast offering aid from other members.
I would love for these types of examples to be used as exemplars of faith. A family chooses to pay tithings not knowing how to pay all their obligations. They go to their bishop in faith and he assists them financially. In this way, the family demonstrates faith believing that the Lord would honor His promises. God fulfills his promises through the fast offering and other faithful contributions of fellow ward members. The fellow ward members become God’s hands and feet or his assistants in bringing about his promises.
Receiving fast offering aid after paying tithing is an “act of faith”!!!
:thumbup: February 23, 2020 at 10:01 pm #338782Anonymous
GuestI had a super long screed typed up but it got nasty. I’ll leave it at: Sorry, no pats on the back from me.
February 24, 2020 at 12:40 am #338783Anonymous
Guestnibbler wrote:
I had a super long screed typed up but it got nasty. I’ll leave it at:Sorry, no pats on the back from me.
I had snarky remarks that in some cases I refrained from and some I edited.
February 24, 2020 at 9:17 pm #338784Anonymous
GuestI feel more disconnected than many about church finances because I have not paid tithing in about 10 years. This allows me to have a “they can do what they want with their money” attitude. I do sense that some of what the presiding bishops are saying is PR spin. That is why I was glad that it was disclosed that the figures that they were using for humanitarian aid included fast offerings. It helps to some small extent to understand how they are doing their math. I suppose it remains a good question if donations from church members that flow through the church and are earmarked to help humanitarian causes should be reported separately than any humanitarian expenses from the church financial sheet itself. I had never considered fast offerings as an expense of the church organization. Similarly, the giving machines that we tend to see around Christmastime connect willing donors with those in need. Should the amount given through these machines be listed as humanitarian aid given by the LDS church?
Beyond that I ask myself how the public knowledge of this huge nest egg that the church has might change church operations. If the church had 100B in securities last year and almost nobody knew about it and today the church has 100B in securities and it is public knowledge how does this change in disclosure change church operations?
February 24, 2020 at 9:57 pm #338785Anonymous
GuestI will keep my screed short. Stop it!! Now!!
Yes, they need funds to cover the church BUT – church can look a lot of different ways, that doesn’t require a nest egg that could feed the world.
Kitchen table economics shows you can tighten your belt and still provide.
And how much money have we dumped into programs we don’t use anymore – “I’m a Mormon” comes to mind.
Climbing off soap box. Turning Off Megaphone. Going back to day job.
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