- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Well enough of my life crisis. Here is an actual Church question. What happens after we are “judged”? Here is my question…
Imagine infinity as a long straight never ending line. Somewhere along the line you put an electron microscope and set it to the highest magnification. And you put a dot that you can barely see. That is our life on earth. Totally insignificant amount of time and yet it is everything. If during that microsecond of time we do something bad, we end up in one of the lower kingdoms. If by some chance at the microsecond of time we are doing something good we end up in the highest kingdom. According to the church once we are judged we are going to one of three destinations (plus outer darkness) and we are stuck there. Only the ones going to the highest kingdom get to move on and live the high life. The rest of those on the other two kingdoms are screwed.
I was always fed the BS that god is an all wise loving heavenly father. But banishing two whole bunches of souls is NOT loving by any stretch of the imagination. It would be like someone who had two kids and they take one microsecond and if one or both of the children are good they get rewarded over and over. If at that microsecond of time one or both were bad they would be locked in a closet forever.
What seems more loving is Reincarnation. We keep trying until we finally get it right. No one is banished and everyone continues on their progression.
It used to really bother my mother that, although there is supposedly progression within the Celestial Kingdom, there is supposedly no progression between kingdoms. I’ve heard that all my life, but I am not aware of any scriptural support for the idea. Maybe a GA here and there has said something to that effect, but is it really scriptural? I personally lean towards a belief that there is room for everyone to progress as far as they want to. I don’t like the idea of reincarnation. The idea of returning to life in a different body kind of creeps me out. To me, my body and my spirit belong together. I’m still undecided as to whether I believe in progression between kingdoms, though, and until I find a good reason to disbelieve it, I’m going to keep leaning in that direction. Frankly, I see it all as symbolic, so I don’t have to worry about it. I believe in eternal progression – for everyone.
Recently I’ve come to really like the idea of reincarnation. It gives mortality a more learning-centered feel while the LDS concept of earth life is often framed as more of a test. I would like to believe in a God who sets things up to help us and teach us rather than to judge who is worthy. While it may be a weird source of spirituality, I’ve found interesting perspectives on God, reincarnation, and the afterlife in some of the Asian dramas I watch. It’s interesting to see other cultures’ perspectives on religion, even by just looking at how those ideas appear in their popular culture. Katzpur wrote:
It used to really bother my mother that, although there is supposedly progression within the Celestial Kingdom, there is supposedly no progression between kingdoms. I’ve heard that all my life, but I am not aware of any scriptural support for the idea. Maybe a GA here and there has said something to that effect, but is it really scriptural? I personally lean towards a belief that there is room for everyone to progress as far as they want to. I don’t like the idea of reincarnation. The idea of returning to life in a different body kind of creeps me out. To me, my body and my spirit belong together. I’m still undecided as to whether I believe in progression between kingdoms, though, and until I find a good reason to disbelieve it, I’m going to keep leaning in that direction.
According to Givens, prior to the 1950s and the influence of certain GAs it was commonly believed and taught in the church that progression in the afterlife was part of the plan. I also believe in that idea of eternal progression, and I do not discount the idea of multiple experiences on Earth. I also believe none of us, including any and all GAs who have ever lived, know what happens in the afterlife including judgement.
I view it as meeting an old friend I haven’t seen in a long time. You pick up where you left off prior to coming to earth.
The conclusion will be concerning my life:
Quote:wasn’t that interesting.
Personally I have too much to navigate by getting through today to worry about my final judgement.
DarkJedi wrote:According to Givens, prior to the 1950s and the influence of certain GAs it was commonly believed and taught in the church that progression in the afterlife was part of the plan. I also believe in that idea of eternal progression, and I do not discount the idea of multiple experiences on Earth. I also believe none of us, including any and all GAs who have ever lived, know what happens in the afterlife including judgement.
So that does sound as if it’s not actual doctrine to that there won’t be progression between kingdoms, but just the opinion of certain GAs. I’m with you — none of us knows what it’s all going to be like. The older I get, the less I find myself worrying about the unknowns.
Gomezaddams51 wrote:
Only the ones going to the highest kingdom get to move on and live the high life. The rest of those on the other two kingdoms are screwed.I was always fed the BS that god is an all wise loving heavenly father. But banishing two whole bunches of souls is NOT loving by any stretch of the imagination. It would be like someone who had two kids and they take one microsecond and if one or both of the children are good they get rewarded over and over. If at that microsecond of time one or both were bad they would be locked in a closet forever.
What seems more loving is Reincarnation. We keep trying until we finally get it right. No one is banished and everyone continues on their progression.
Frankly, I don’t think anyone knows what will happen. All we have are teachings and data points to build our beliefs.If there are things in those scenarios you listed that seem to be BS or don’t make sense to you, discard them, cafeteria style…choose the good parts.
There is great value for me in holding on to the belief that God is all knowing, powerful, and loving. Therefore, if it doesn’t make sense to me it would seem it wouldn’t make sense to a superior God, and He will have higher ways.
I like teachings of reincarnation. Perhaps multiple chances to keep learning is a good thing, but there are some things that I get hung up on for that as well when I get into the specifics.
There is also the possibility it is completely different than anything we have been taught, and as Curt stated, it is all symbolic. In which case, you get something out of the symbolism that helps you, or you don’t and not worry about it.
The afterlife is a mystery. What we have here and now is real. I am not sure there is a god, but I choose to have faith in one that does not have a lame plan like you described that banishes most of his creations.
I think the teaching that people can’t progress from kingdom to kingdom came from someone concerned that if people could progress from kingdom to kingdom then everyone would approach life with reckless abandon. In other words, why bother trying to be good in life if you have all eternity to make it? In comes the “rule” that people can’t progress from kingdom to kingdom to stave off that imagined outcome. I’ve found that generally we are our own harshest critic. So much so that I feel god would take on more of a therapist role than the role of judge. People are very good at being judges, it’s no surprise that we imagine god to be the same.
I remember reading about an analogy from the early Utah period comparing the kingdoms to wheels on a train. The idea is that each of the kingdoms is progressing and all the inhabitants with it. As each kingdom progresses, it will inhabit the level that another kingdom used to inhabit. The telestial kingdom will progress to become what the terrestial kingdom is now, the terrestial kingdom will progress to become what the celestial kingdom is now, and the celestial kingdom will have progressed to become something even higher and more wonderful, forever and ever. Just like the wheels on a train, the back wheels reach where the front wheels were but they never catch up because the front wheels have moved on. nibbler wrote:
I think the teaching that people can’t progress from kingdom to kingdom came from someone concerned that if people could progress from kingdom to kingdom then everyone would approach life with reckless abandon. In other words, why bother trying to be good in life if you have all eternity to make it? In comes the “rule” that people can’t progress from kingdom to kingdom to stave off that imagined outcome.
Then someone decided that idea wasn’t motivating enough to make sacrifices to live our best lives right now and the teaching was stopped.
nibbler wrote:
I think the teaching that people can’t progress from kingdom to kingdom came from someone concerned that if people could progress from kingdom to kingdom then everyone would approach life with reckless abandon. In other words, why bother trying to be good in life if you have all eternity to make it? In comes the “rule” that people can’t progress from kingdom to kingdom to stave off that imagined outcome.I’ve found that generally we are our own harshest critic. So much so that I feel god would take on more of a therapist role than the role of judge. People are very good at being judges, it’s no surprise that we imagine god to be the same.
I agree and could name names (not someone, rather a group) but it’s easy enough to figure out, although some of them were a little more “behind the scenes” players. I believe this orchestrated shift in ideology is the roots of today’s “strict obedience” and works based salvation attitude. I also believe we are starting to see a shift away from that ideology but I don’t expect to really see a return to the teaching of progression in the kingdoms soon, but nowadays almost anything can happen (as long as RMN holds the reins).
Arrakeen wrote:
Recently I’ve come to really like the idea of reincarnation. It gives mortality a more learning-centered feel while the LDS concept of earth life is often framed as more of a test. I would like to believe in a God who sets things up to help us and teach us rather than to judge who is worthy.Don’t you think it would make so much sense since we believe in a spirit world and progression that we should keep getting more chances in this mortal life to learn things until we are worthy of the CK? Instead of eternally stuck in TKs?
Katzpur wrote:
To me, my body and my spirit belong together. I’m still undecided as to whether I believe in progression between kingdoms, though, and until I find a good reason to disbelieve it, I’m going to keep leaning in that direction.
I guess that would be the other factor…it wouldn’t keep our mortal bodies consistent with spirit and body immortalized forever, and probably create more problems with the plan of salvation for who is sealed to whom. So…I guess it wouldn’t work out.Just seems weird we have eternity…and so much judged on this brief blink of an eye in our mortal experience, especially when so much random stuff happens in mortality to make it seem unfair to one shot at this … there is so much out of our control in order to experience and learn things just in one lifetime.
A long time ago I had a similar struggle. A StayLDS participant by the name Mercyngrace showed me a way to reconcile the unrestrained love of God and His desire for our eternal progress with LDS teachings. http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2288&hilit=love+wins+rob+bell&start=20
Quote:What are these 3 degrees of the Celestial Kingdom? These are not really different KINGDOMS – in fact the word kingdom only appears in the SINGULAR in D&C 76. There are however, different GLORIES. D&C 88 explains that we are quickened to the glory of the kingdom whose law we are able to keep but we live together in the Celestial kingdom. For that to happen, the degrees we teach as a “tiered heaven” must be the degrees of glory which individual beings inherit in the Celestial Kingdom. D&C 130:2 reiterates that we will have the SAME SOCIALITY in heaven that we have now only couple with eternal GLORY.
Now Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other early restoration prophets taught that resurrection is a culmination of progression. So we continue to progress in spirit until we are prepared to be resurrected – this is why D&C says that the greater knowledge a man acquires here, the more his advantage in the world to come. Not because others are lost but because those who abide higher laws are further along in the process.
Some more recent church leaders have spoken vehemently against progression between the kingdoms based on the misconception that a being can be resurrected in a telestial or terrestrial state. In other words, you can’t progress from being a telestial resurrected being to a celestial resurrected being. That is true. It’s true because you can’t be resurrected prior to entering the celestial kingdom, at least, according to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
Now I can provide you with quotes to these ends as well as quotes by more recent church leaders who also spoke to the universal nature of salvation.
There is a judgment, a final judgment, and you will have been prepared to meet it successfully before you are presented at the veil. It is an individual presentation and you must have been taught everything that you need to know before arriving. The quoted portion is only a taste. Please follow the link if you want source citations etc.
As indicated in the quoted portion. Some more recent church leaders have spoken against such progression. I have found that for me to stayLDS it is necessary for me to believe some things differently than others in my ward. We do not all have to have identical beliefs. Still, it helps if I can quote a church leader in support of my divergent beliefs. This helps others to understand that, while I may be different, I am still Mormon.
Roy wrote:
I have found that for me to stayLDS it is necessary for me to believe some things differently than others in my ward. We do not all have to have identical beliefs. Still, it helps if I can quote a church leader in support of my divergent beliefs. This helps others to understand that, while I may be different, I am still Mormon.
I like the way you said that. Thanks for the reminder.
Since none of us know what the judgment or any part of the afterlike is really like, even if others at church want to have certainty on it so badly, the fact is we choose what to put faith in by what we read, and also what we feel inside to make sense to us, confirmed by the spirit.
I came across a 1930 April General Conference talk by Elder James E Talmage. He says “salvation is graded ever upward until it culminates in the glorious condition of exaltation… One of the greatest [truths] is that to hell there is an exit as well as an entrance…It is a place prepared for the teaching, the disciplining of those who failed to learn here upon the earth what they should have learned.”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.