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One of the things I struggle with in the church is the feeling that I don’t fit in with the group identity. I seem to have a really difficult time feeling a sense of loyalty or belonging to a group. For example, my mission had the whole mission vision statement and mission song, but I was never really into it and can’t say I was proud of being in that mission. I wasn’t one of those RMs saying they served in the best mission in the world. If there was a mission-wide fast or initiative, I didn’t feel that motivated to participate. I’m one of the only ones from my mission group who never attended any mission reunions.
I have similar feelings about most groups. I don’t have “school spirit” and don’t wear school apparel or cheer for the football team. I follow politics closely, but don’t participate in any political party or group. The only group where I really feel included is my immediate family.
I’ve never really felt much loyalty to the church. Whenever there’s some new stake/ward/quorum goal or initiative I typically don’t participate. I typically view myself as an outcast, and if I didn’t have a role in creating the goal or mission statement then I feel no obligation to work towards it.
Anyway, I’ve often been called selfish for not going along with the group. Could this be true? Do I have a duty to participate in group goals and “rituals”? Do I not participate because I am an outcast, or am I on the fringes because I don’t participate in the things that build the group identity?
Should I be doing more to try and fit in and become a part of the church culture/identity, or is the church community just not “my people”?
There is a lot going on here. 1)
Not a Joiner– From what you mention here, it sounds like your personal default is not to join things – especially for the sake of joining things. For more community-driven people, this will drive their judgements of “selfishness” – if they see your joining level and involvement as less then a predetermined expectation. 2)
Duty– I think that you have an obligation to figure out what the written and unwritten community expectations are for “belonging” and then decide if the resources you have can or should meet those requirements as much as possible. NOTE: This is a tall order because everyone will have a different expectation of what belonging means and what the rules are – not to mention the unwritten ones or the priority order. 3)
Outcastness– It’s a chicken and the egg argument. It is likely that your current level of participation contributes to being an outcast (others see you as less involved), but since your current level of participation is what you are most comfortable with right now (hence driven by you) – it’s a matter of both factors. Quote:
Should I be doing more to try and fit in and become a part of the church culture/identity, or is the church community just not “my people”?
We can’t answer that one for you, sorry.The tension between a person’s individuality in a community setting, the focus and amount of resources available to the person in the setting, the tallying of the cost-benefit analysis regarding belonging to the community, and the ease of replacing that community are all huge factors to be considered. NOTE: These are also non-church tensions.
If you decide you want to belong to the community, it becomes important that you determine within your self and broadcast to others what you are willing to bring to the community – and how you are setting up the boundaries. It is important to also expect pushback from whomever you come across that doesn’t recognize (wittingly or unwittingly) those boundaries – the theoretical framework or actual implementation.
The most important questions you will keep asking is if you want to be belong, and which costs(s) of belonging you are willing to pay and how you see that you can pay them.
I agree with much of what Amy said. As an introvert I have often found it hard to “fit in” to the church’s expectations* regarding working with some people, doing some things I don’t really care to do, and the kind of business model of “always improving.” The church seems to have the fixation on “developing leaders” and trying to make people into things they aren’t. There’s a management book I like called
First, Break All the Rulesand one of the points it makes is to manage the strengths of the person and don’t try to change the weaknesses – rather help them to be who they already are. (An example is the really good janitor who fails when promoted to supervisor – if he’s a really good janitor and takes pride in being a good janitor then that’s his strength. Managing and ordering probably isn’t, so let him do what he’s good at. The church – rather many “leaders” – mostly miss this point.) To Amy’s point about duty, I believe most of what we’re taught about church duty is more of an attempt to guilt us into doing things, some of those things being the above mentioned things I don’t really care to do. I have failed to find examples among the disciples of Jesus where Jesus guilted them into doing anything – He said “Come follow me” and they did because they wanted to (and some eventually left). They didn’t minister because they had to report back to Him, they ministered because that’s what they wanted to do.
Ward activities are another example. I don’t go to most ward activities. I’m not a super social person and I’d rather go for a walk with the dog or binge watch something (yes, even at my age) than go to trunk or treat. There are people who’ve tried to guilt me into coming to things before, but their Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded. I’d rather spend that time doing something I actually enjoy than hanging around people I mostly wouldn’t (and don’t) hang out with normally.
One of the keys for me in overcoming my faith crisis and returning to church activity (to the degree I have) was letting go of the false fear/guilt that so many church members are adept at trying to impose on others. Being very forthright as usual, that’s what I see in your questions. As Amy said, that last question you have to answer for yourself, and that depends on what makes you happy.
*I know I alluded to this in the body, but just to be perfectly clear – I’ve found most expectations in the church to be expectations of men, not of God.
Arrakeen, My only advice, which I have often given under varied circumstances, is: don’t define yourself by what you are not — define yourself by what you are. Saying, “I am not part of the group” “I didn’t participate in mission fasts” “I don’t buy into x” “I don’t belong (aka, I’m an outcast)”. All these accomplish is to set up a notion of an ideal, and then to compare yourself against it; focusing on the difference between yourself and your acknowledged reference point. An example from my own life: I’m an Atheist, but I try not to say, “I don’t believe in God” to anyone — I always try to say, “I believe there is no God” and the difference, to me, is monumental.
I still attend Church (at least in non-Pandemic times) and I enjoy it there. When they say “invite your neighbors”, I don’t. That’s not why I’m there. I am there because I’m married to a believer and don’t want to leaver… er… leave her. But also important is that I think of myself as a ‘spiritual’ believer in Christianity, and although the LDS Church is not a perfect environment for me to tap into Christianity, it is a viable environment for it, because I have made it that way for myself. I spend exactly 0.00 seconds fretting over not having any intention to invite my neighbors because I don’t define myself as someone who isn’t willing. I don’t define myself against that particular request and it makes no difference to me whether or not others are going to invite their neighbors. More than that, I don’t concern myself with whether they notice that I don’t invite my neighbors or if they expect me to and wonder why I don’t report on it. It has nothing to do with me.
But, I do like people in my ward and I like to talk to them on Sundays and see them at ward activities. I feel like I am part of a group, but it is a group that I have defined. Others may see the group as a collection of believers. They may see the group as tithing-payers or neighbor-inviters or BYU fans. They define the group as they see it, which is fine. For me, the group is people who I like and whose lives intersect with my own in a positive way.
I’ve never felt like I fit easily into the the cultural structure of Mormonism. I enjoy attending church and Sunday School. I don’t mind going to other related meetings but I hate…hate…hate discussions of leadership. That’s when I feel the LDS Church is run by a bunch of successful businessmen who can’t seem to fathom that leadership is something THEY are interested in but not others. In fact, I wonder if our rather superficial exploration of doctrine via Sunday School etc. is due to that. Businessmen (forgive me if I paint them all inappropriately with the same brush) don’t really look at the processes they are using but rather the bottom line (that makes sense…in a business). But religion, in my opinion, is about understanding, spirituality, service, connection, worship and many other things that aren’t going to be measured as easily. I’ve been listening to a podcast by Richard Rohr, a Catholic priest with some very interesting ideas about God and religion, and it’s fascinating to listen to someone who is diving deep into an understanding of our relationship with God. Not to say that I agree with everything he says, but the process he uses seems so satisfying and refreshing. Of course, this is where the “fitting in” comes in. I’m fairly sure that the vast majority of members have little desire to engage in that kind of philosophical exploration. It’s not a criticism. It just reinforces the idea that what I’d like to see at Church is very different. I will say one thing: every once in a while, I’m asked to give a talk and I try hard (while staying within doctrinal lines) to do a somewhat deep dive into different issues. As much as I can anyway. I think my ward has come to realize that my talks don’t follow the same track and I think many people enjoy them (at least they tell me they do…maybe they’re just being polite). I imagine that there are a few other people like myself but it’s hard to find one another. Arrakeen wrote:
Anyway, I’ve often been called selfish for not going along with the group. Could this be true? Do I have a duty to participate in group goals and “rituals”? Do I not participate because I am an outcast, or am I on the fringes because I don’t participate in the things that build the group identity?Should I be doing more to try and fit in and become a part of the church culture/identity, or is the church community just not “my people”?
I have told this story before. As a missionary the AP’s taught about a sort of super missionary that always goes above and beyond the call of duty. They then asked us to make a covenant to become that sort of missionary and sign a big banner saying so. I snuck out the back but then realized that I had forgotten my gloves and had to double back for them. The AP’s cornered me and asked why I hadn’t signed. I explained that I felt that covenants were very personal and not something I felt should be taken lightly. They explained that they wanted to present the MP with this document with the signatures of all the missionaries and that if I was willing to sign then it could only be for show and not really represent a covenant with God. I signed.
I equate this back to your question. Could I properly be called selfish for not signing and ruining the AP’s carefully laid plans? Do I have a duty to help?
For me personally, I do not see it in terms of selfishness and duty at all. It is about relationships. I build relationships when I do things with others, serve others, and/or allow them to serve me. There are lots of opportunities to build relationships. I can choose those opportunities that fit into my interests and strengths and pass on those opportunities that do not. In my example of signing the banner, the AP’s needed me to sign the paper and knew full well that it did not represent a deeper commitment. It cost me nothing to sign it and bought me some good will from the AP’s. (As an aside, I have learned that lots of conflicts in the church are resolved by people agreeing to a onerous commitment and then not really doing it. Maybe in “going through the motions” of what the leadership wanted to hear, I was already part of the majority.
:crazy: 😆 )A second part of this is that if you have served a mission then you have already dedicated significant resources to being part of the group. You are a native Mormon and do not feel lost, confused, or bewildered by all the quirks, acronyms, or shared cultural memories. That is a significant advantage to being part of the group. I like to think of the “Jack Mormons.” They may not attend church and they may not be living according to church standards but they still belong … they are still “Mormons” for as long as they choose to be associated. You belong too!
It can feel like there is only one way to be mormon and there is peer pressure to conform, since they reinforce the ideals so much. But I’ve truly learned the church is a tent large enough for a variety of mormon ways, and it is big enough to be different and be your own person.
We often use the buffet analogy to help realize you can pick and choose what is important to you, and allow the other stuff for others to have. And that is ok.
In fact, I think people respect you more for being true to what you really believe and being yourself rather than being insincere in your testimony and go through the motions just to feel accepted by others.
At some point, you travel a personal road and do it your own way. Fitting in isn’t the goal, spiritual growth is.
I joined the church in college as an adult. The ward I was a member of was very small. As a result, if you were in anyway unorthodox you stood out. Within a month, my wife decided she wanted a divorce so she & my daughter sat on one side of the
congregation & I sat on the other. Talk about being unorthodox. Within the year, I graduated college & got a job in the big city with
a big ward. I quickly realized that the size of the congregation makes a big difference in the personality of the ward. I like diversity in
a ward. I like to be challenged in what I believe. I don’t pretend to have all the answers when it comes to my religious beliefs, political
beliefs or anything else.
It doesn’t take very long in any situation, to get a “feel” for the “room” if you sit back & just listen. It doesn’t take long to realize the
dominate personalities. Liberal, Conservative, etc. Within a short period of time, I know who I can have an open conversation with &
who I probably, never will. That’s ok. I don’t expect to be liked or understood by everyone. All I ask for is respect.
Minyan Man wrote:
I joined the church in college as an adult. The ward I was a member of was very small. As a result, if you were in anywayunorthodox you stood out. Within a month, my wife decided she wanted a divorce so she & my daughter sat on one side of the
congregation & I sat on the other. Talk about being unorthodox. Within the year, I graduated college & got a job in the big city with
a big ward. I quickly realized that the size of the congregation makes a big difference in the personality of the ward. I like diversity in
a ward. I like to be challenged in what I believe. I don’t pretend to have all the answers when it comes to my religious beliefs, political
beliefs or anything else.
Divorce in the church sucks. I have a friend “Joe” who is not yet divorced (thanks to Covid issues slowing down the legal system), but should have by now. But wagging tongues are always a problem. For example, one inactive member went told me that “Joe” had committed adultery. I had to point out to him in no uncertain terms that not every divorce was due to adultery!!! The soon-to-be-ex-wife of “Joe” herself has never made such a claim, although she has said many other bad things. Thankfully, I was able to stop that rumor.
Then there were all the people who tried to say they had not lived up to their covenants. I think they had in most cases. The real causes were threefold – personal disagreements, the mother-in-law interfering and psychology (one party is autistic). This is all small ward stuff… But we are quite a big ward and very mobile. But we have a small core of people who always stay here.
Other similar things I’ve heard was that an ex-bishop and his wife were only staying together for the kids. A few years down the line, their kids are now both full grown adults in their mid twenties, out of town and out of college. And that couple is still together, living in the same household…
But on the other hand, we had a ward member who was a transvestite (it’s quite a complex deal with this person, so I’ll stick to this term and the male pronoun*). He came along to sacrament meetings, and some people did complain, but most people didn’t say anything. There was nothing outrageous or sexual about his dress – it wasn’t revealing, in fact it would be very modest if a woman wore it. He also sat at the back and wasn’t one of these people who craved constant attention, which you see a lot of these days. He never got a calling though. I never had a big issue with him personally, in fact we used to hang out regularly and I got to know him well. He has moved out of the country now, but I am pretty happy about how the ward handled it, even though there could still have been improvements. We still stay in touch.
—
* He does have gender dysphoria, but refers to himself as “he”, and wears female clothing. He does not take hormones AFAIK or had any surgery. This may change in the future, but just explaining the situation.
I’m sorry. I didn’t explain myself very well. I don’t believe there is a single group identity. Our Branches, Wards & Stakes (usually) are a reflection of the society we live in.
Each unit has it’s own personalities, belief systems & sense of self importance (‘clicks”). How we fit in depends on how well we listen, ask
questions & choose who we talk to & over time, share our confidence. For example, I do not socialize very well with “leadership”.
I do like to talk to new members & members that live on the fringe. (We usually sit in the back during Sacrament Mtgs.)
Arrakeen said:
Arrakeen wrote:
One of the things I struggle with in the church is the feeling that I don’t fit in with the group identity. I seem to have a really difficult time feeling a sense of loyalty or belonging to a group.
I don’t believe there is one group identity. One segment maybe more vocal or opinionated. Others, not so much.
My point is: listen. Then pick & choose who you talk, confide & identify with. And be friendly with everyone you meet.
My personal opinion is: If you find 2 or 3 good friends in any ward (group) that you can count on, you’re doing well.
In most cases, you have to be a friend first.
Another aspect I need to clarify, from my experience (for what it’s worth), groups (branches, wards or stakes) that reside close to a college or university setting seem to be more “progressive” or tolerant of opposing views
or opinions. This is a generalization I know that doesn’t always work.
Minyan Man wrote:
Another aspect I need to clarify, from my experience (for what it’s worth), groups (branches, wards or stakes)that reside close to a college or university setting seem to be more “progressive” or tolerant of opposing views
or opinions. This is a generalization I know that doesn’t always work.
It is a good observation though. We have a major well known university in our stake with a regular ward and a student branch. As a high councilor I loved speaking in those units and going to their other meetings for the very reason you mention.
Roy wrote:
A second part of this is that if you have served a mission then you have already dedicated significant resources to being part of the group. You are a native Mormon and do not feel lost, confused, or bewildered by all the quirks, acronyms, or shared cultural memories. That is a significant advantage to being part of the group. I like to think of the “Jack Mormons.” They may not attend church and they may not be living according to church standards but they still belong … they are still “Mormons” for as long as they choose to be associated. You belong too!
I think this is part of my struggle. I’m at a point where I don’t really believe in any of the doctrines of the church. I’ve considered just “burning it all down” by leaving the church and trying to just forget everything about the church to get away from some of my traumatic experiences. But, in the end I’m still very much Mormon. I’ve never had alcohol, coffee, or tea and doubt I would enjoy them anyway. I don’t have any clue how to swear even if I wanted to. In many ways I still see the world through a Mormon lens. Who I am is influenced very much by my Mormon upbringing, and by throwing out the bad things I would likely end up throwing away a lot of good things as well.
So now I’m trying to find some way to reconcile my Mormon identity with no longer believing or participating in a lot of the religion.
Minyan Man wrote:
Another aspect I need to clarify, from my experience (for what it’s worth), groups (branches, wards or stakes)that reside close to a college or university setting seem to be more “progressive” or tolerant of opposing views
or opinions. This is a generalization I know that doesn’t always work.
In my experience though BYU is quite lacking in diversity compared to other university wards. Part of my problem might be that over the last few years I’ve only been in BYU student wards, where I really don’t fit in. One ward was particularly rough for me since almost everyone was a recent RM gushing about how wonderful their mission was and still not over the spiritual “high”. And I was the one who hated his mission.
The ward I grew up in was quite diverse, and it was great. It was probably one of the most diverse wards in the church. We had members from Canada, Italy, Brazil, Mexico, Ghana, Taiwan, and then about half the ward was from Cambodia. And of course we had some Utah Mormons mixed in as well. There were Democrats and Republicans, and there were members who were very rich, very poor, and everything in between. It was more the kind of environment where if you showed up, you were welcome. And it made it a lot of fun, we had tons of activities for the cultural celebrations of the various places represented in our ward. And our potlucks could not be beat.
Arrakeen wrote:I think this is part of my struggle. I’m at a point where I don’t really believe in any of the doctrines of the church. I’ve considered just “burning it all down” by leaving the church and trying to just forget everything about the church to get away from some of my traumatic experiences. But, in the end I’m still very much Mormon. I’ve never had alcohol, coffee, or tea and doubt I would enjoy them anyway. I don’t have any clue how to swear even if I wanted to. In many ways I still see the world through a Mormon lens. Who I am is influenced very much by my Mormon upbringing, and by throwing out the bad things I would likely end up throwing away a lot of good things as well.
So now I’m trying to find some way to reconcile my Mormon identity with no longer believing or participating in a lot of the religion.
Yes, that is a struggle. I do not know anything about your traumatic experiences. I do recommend healthy boundaries to help prevent reoccurrence and self care to help minimize the amount of “triggers” you may face. I also believe that generally trying to run away from and forget experiences is not an effective long term strategy and can have other unintended consequences. I know that from a grief perspective it is recommended to avoid making any big changes while going through the grief of losing a loved one. Things like moving or getting divorced are discouraged as part of the decision may just be to change your scenery so as not to be reminded of the person that you lost.I believe that we at stayLDS try to help people through a somewhat different grief process. A loss of “testimony” or worldview can be significant. I feel that the term “assumptive world collapse” was accurate to describe my faith crisis. I hope that we can help people to slow down and work through their grief in a way that they might ultimately reach the grief stage of acceptance – accepting themselves, accepting others that still believe (or that believe more traditionally), accepting the church and it’s history and the way that it shaped you for good and for bad.
We function as a support group of sorts. None of us are professionals. We have found some strategies that work for us personally to stayLDS and we share those with others. For those that do stop attending church or even have their names removed after coming here, I hope that they were able to do so based on what was best for them moving forward rather than trying to run away from things in their past. I imagine that balance can be harder for some than for others and the process can be messy but that is my hope.
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