Fraud Claims on use of Church donations

Whenever I see articles like that, I’m not sure how to make sense of it. Jesus Christ and many ancient prophet were against materialism, but realized money was needed at times to do work in the church. However, I believe the main church leadership often acts too much like administrators than ministers. I realize the ancient church’s organization was more flat versus the more hierarchical one of today. Do God or the God’s change their minds? I’m not sure. However, I realize us human beings do change our minds, so doing the right thing may not always be so black and white.

This reminds me of a fairly recent case in the UK. Tom Phillips was wanting to prosecute TSM for fraud.

There was a lengthy discussion on the subject back in 2014:

https://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5140&hilit=fraud

My favorite quote from that discussion is the following and it pretty much describes my understanding and feeling on the subject:

So that part of me just wants to hang a big sign on all religion that says “Caveat Emptor:” If you want to believe in some flavor of God, that’s fine, but don’t expect the government to bail you out when you change your mind.

This case is somewhat different because it appears that Mr. Huntsman is trying to argue that the money was not being used for it’s stated purpose. I personally believe that this would be a difficult path to take. My general understanding of what tithing is to be used for is to build up the “kingdom of God.” I imagine that there could be a wide variety of activities that would fit that description (including investment in commercial activities).

I assume Mr. Huntsman is a pretty smart guy and knows that he is unlikely to get his tithing money back (and he says that he will donate it to charity if he does get anything) but that he still feels that it is worth it to pay his lawyers to bring this case forward.

I teed up this discussion on Wheat & Tares also. https://wheatandtares.org/2021/03/24/no-tithing-refunds/

Here’s my overall view of it (my latest comment in the thread):

I simultaneously hold conflicting views:

1) I’m pleased for the Church that through its wise management, it is now not only solvent, but sheesh, rolling in it to the point of not knowing what to do with it.

2) I agree that there’s a bit of Sam Walton syndrome going on. On the whole, Church leaders aren’t living in opulence. They seem to be living at about the standard they did when they were in real jobs.

3) Tithing is, without question, a regressive tax. It’s much harder on the poor than the rich. As such, it’s hard for me to see it as any kind of great equalizer, and for the poor to donate to the Uber Rich Organization doesn’t feel right.

4) It is utterly shocking and gross to me that the Church spent funds to oppose LGBT rights (e.g. the Prop 8 fight). I grew up believing in the separation of Church & state, and believing the Church’s claims to be apolitical (that it has since changed). I would never have donated a dime toward such a cause knowingly.

5) Transparency is always good. Sunshine and light are the best disinfectants (although not a great remedy for Covid despite what Trump said). Maybe if the Church were forced to be more transparent, they would also be better with their funds. (Hawkins’ statement sounds like weasel words to me–I agree with Dave B.)

6) It feels wrong to me for the Church to excommunicate someone while retaining their tithes.

7) The pay-to-play role that the temple fills is also deeply troubling, the older I get.

I find the idea of detachment that tithing creates (that it’s not MY money, that I should give it away freely) to be a valuable spiritual practice.

9) I’m not convinced that the Church is trustworthy with these funds on the basis of #3, 4, 6 and 7. There are probably better places to donate.

10) I seriously doubt that with a 6-3 conservative bench, we’ll ever see anyone hold Churches accountable for anything in my lifetime. Given that, I wonder if that will actually reduce the influence of Churches in society as the public loses trust in them as benevolent institutions. A more liberal bench would keep them from acting on their worst impulses, IMO.

I agree the suit is hopeless as far as getting tithing donations back. But I think it will raise more questions about how the church spends its money when people see this in the headlines. I think ever since the “$100 Billion” thing came out there has been more interest in the church’s finances and more people wanting tithing money to be used for different things.

I will say I personally do not like how the church spends its money. I don’t care about building more temples or growing a ridiculously large “rainy day fund”. I would much rather see the money go to charity and humanitarian efforts. And as I’m just about to start my career after college and considering the prospects of earning “real” money, I’m realizing just how huge 10% of your income can be. I’m not sure I’m willing to sacrifice that to help the church grow an investment fund or put a crystal chandelier in a temple somewhere.

I’m pretty sure nothing the church has done amounts to “fraud”, but they have definitely not been transparent. This has some unfortunate consequences. At best, members just don’t know where the money goes. At worst, some members are misled into thinking they are donating to charitable causes by paying tithing.

From a financial view, there are a few questions – in this day and age, it is no good to invest in shopping malls as they are partly obsolete. They also buy a lot of farmland, but recently they have been outcompeted by the sinister and slimy Bill Gates in that area.

I have, pre-COVID, been to City Creek and as places like that go it does seem to be thriving. It’s way ahead of our local mall which is practically shuttered. It is in a decent location as opposed to most malls, and unlike the suburban type mall it includes housing and office space not to mention its large underground parking. It should be noted that City Creek is not the only investment like that on the part of the church – the church also significantly “spruced up” the area around the Philadelphia Temple with new office and housing construction, for example. And I do believe Pres. HInckley when he said that tithing money was not used for City Creek (and presumably other projects), I do believe the money did come from investments and interest (although if we follow it back far enough we’d likely find that tithing seeded those investments).

I think the land is a little bit different story. Bill Gates or no, the church is still one of (if not the) largest land owner in Florida. But they do seem to use the land for production of food.* I think that’s a good thing. The church does own some land in upstate New York (the Whitmer and Harris farms for example) which are not actively farmed by the church but are leased to local farmers for production. I also believe this land to be part of the church’s “investment portfolio” and not bought with tithing.

All of that said, I agree with what others have said about the idea of the church having such a mass of wealth affecting how people view donations. I have talked to several local members and family members about it and while it hasn’t necessarily “stopped” most people from paying I think people think about it more and are inclined to pay less.

*Yes, I am aware that not all of the land is farmed and some is developed and sold. I actually thought it interesting about the resistance to the church’s plan for the Tooele (Erda) are temple and that the church did alter the whole plan. I also got the vibe “Well, Erda, you won’t let us do what we want so we’ll just move our temple 5 miles away. So there, now you don’t get a temple and you have to drive all that way.” I also wish that instead of building more middle and upper middle class type housing the church might invest in more affordable housing.

With conference coming up I can imagine a hastily put together talk (reactionary to this news and after the talks for conference have already been set) delivered by RMN outlining recent things that have been done with church assets; similar to a talk RMN gave during October 2019 general conference.