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Hello! I just found out about this forum a couple of weeks ago and I have now spent hours reading through discussions on various topics. It has been so validating to hear from many other individuals who have similar challenges and concerns that I do.
For a bit of introduction, I was raised in a very faithful LDS family in Utah and I was always very devout: always went to church, earned my YW medallion when I was 14, didn’t watch R rated movies, didn’t drink caffeine, always wore a 1 piece swim suit, etc. I served a mission as soon as I was old enough (this was after the age change to 19 for women) and my mission definitely changed how I viewed the gospel and how I chose to live it. My mission was obsessed with obedience, to the point where they were very judgmental and would also pick some of the more strict interpretations of the white handbook. After a while, I started getting annoyed by this, because you’re not going to get extra blessings for following a rule you made up. I also was annoyed at how sometimes common sense would fly out the window and they would focus so much on the letter of the law. Many missionaries also had high levels of hero worship for our mission president. I remember one sister missionary wondering how she could every marry someone who served in a different mission because they just wouldn’t understand church doctrine the same way, since they didn’t have our MP to teach it to them. Anyway, long story short, I got annoyed by all of this so when I returned home from my mission I began evaluating how many things I do that are more church custom/culture and not required for my good standing before God. So, I stopped doing all the extra things (ie, things not needed to get a temple recommend). I drank caffeine, started watching R rated movies, started swearing (occasionally, lol), stopped going to any church activities besides the 3 hour block, etc. And, I was also much more skeptical of church leaders, because I saw how my fellow missionaries put my flawed mission president on a pedestal, even though some of the stuff he said I didn’t agree with. I realized that this was how it went for any of our church leaders, including GAs. You don’t have to believe everything they say. They make mistakes too and sometimes interpret things poorly.
I’m sorry this is getting so long, but I have a couple more things. When I got home from my mission, I started going to college again, and my personal views started to be more socially progressive and liberal. However, a lot of those views are not in line with current church doctrine, especially my personal beliefs on gay marriage (I’m for it) and the treatment of LGBTQ+ individuals. I started to experience a lot of internal conflict (and still do to this day) because I cannot reconcile my stances on several social issues with the current teachings of the church.
(Content warning: depression and suicide) This all came to a head a couple of years ago when one of my best friends (who is a member of the church and was attending one of the BYUs) came out to me as gay. I was living pretty far away at this point, so I couldn’t be there for them in person. The next few months were terrifying for me because my friend was severely depressed and suicidal at times as he was working through how to be true to himself as well as his religious beliefs. He felt like he was going to have to be alone forever and would never be able to be in a loving relationship. I remember turning my phone volume on high every night before I went to sleep just in case he called me and I needed to talk him down from attempting anything to end his life. He’s doing better now, but I still haven’t been able to go back to church since then. So far, I’ve been able to use the pandemic as an excuse for the reason why I don’t go to church meetings, but with things getting somewhat back to normal I still can’t talk myself into attending meetings again. I still believe many parts of the gospel. I love the Book of Mormon and read it every day and it brings me peace. I still pray every day as well. I still keep the WoW. When I picture my future, I still see myself as an active member of the church. But, I feel this constant guilt because how can I be an active part of this religion that contributed to my friend wanting to end his life, especially when I know his experience is probably similar to that of many others?
I’m still trying to figure out how I want to live as a member of the church, but not feel like I’m contributing to some of the bad things that the church does (whether intentionally or not). Thanks again, for being here and telling your stories. And thanks for reading this post and making it to end, haha. I’m sorry it was so long. This has just been pent up for a while and this is the first chance I’ve had to tell everything to someone. I’m excited to be a part of this community!
Welcome to the forum. Like you, my views on the church changed significantly with my mission. In my case, I fully bought in to the obedience culture and was obsessed with the letter of the law to the point where I developed mental health problems. I also found myself increasingly conflicted towards church teachings while attending college, even though I was at BYU. I also stopped attending church when the pandemic hit, which gave me a much needed break and an opportunity to step back and reflect on my new beliefs and relationship with the church. I have only recently started attending again, with (so far) mixed feelings.
Quote:I started to experience a lot of internal conflict (and still do to this day) because I cannot reconcile my stances on several social issues with the current teachings of the church.
Personally, I have mostly given up trying to reconcile my beliefs with those of the church, and I have just accepted that they are often different. I cannot change the teachings of the church, so I just content myself with developing my own personal beliefs even if those beliefs lead me to disagree with the leaders, the institution, or the membership as a whole. Some people go to church to be with others that share the same beliefs, but I go for other reasons.Quote:But, I feel this constant guilt because how can I be an active part of this religion that contributed to my friend wanting to end his life, especially when I know his experience is probably similar to that of many others?
I’m still trying to figure out how I want to live as a member of the church, but not feel like I’m contributing to some of the bad things that the church does (whether intentionally or not).
I think that there are many ways to engage in church without contributing to the bad. For example, I don’t believe my mere presence at church on Sundays negatively impacts anyone. But I personally do not pay tithing because I do not approve of how the church uses the funds. I also do not teach or advocate any ideas I believe to be harmful. Others may be more active in doing good, like being a good friend to those in the church who are marginalized, as you seem to have done. Though some may see the church as an all-or-nothing proposition, the reality is we are all free to choose which activities we participate in and which we do not, according to our own conscience and personal sense of ethics.Disclaimer, I’m no psychologist. Though it’s fun to pretend. I think the hero worship thing largely comes down to a natural phase in human development. People need role models. The place a person looks to find role models changes throughout their life but generally at the mission age people often find role models in celebrities. If the church is your world, you look to church celebrities and church celebrities are often determined by the calling someone has.
I wouldn’t say this is unique to church; for instance, if basketball is your world you’d look to LeBron or look to the players that are getting the most media attention. That’s why I say I think it’s more of a human development thing.
There are other factors at play. In church culture there’s also a perception that the most righteous members are called to the higher positions in the leadership hierarchy. This phenomenon adds another layer of attractiveness when people are choosing a role model in church. We put church heroes on a pedestal because we also believe they’re more spiritual, righteous, closer to god, etc.
When I was a more orthodox member I got caught in a lot of those sorts of traps so this could be an experience shared by many or it could be just me projecting.
Arrakeen wrote:In my case, I fully bought in to the obedience culture and was obsessed with the letter of the law to the point where I developed mental health problems.
I can safely say the same. Scrupulosity set in hard during the mission years. It put me in a mindset where I could only see what I was lacking and blinded me to the qualities I actually possessed. Imperfect people will always have something they could be doing better so it set up a cycle that chipped away my self esteem.
Walking myself through the years…
Before my mission I saw the average missionary as a hero, even though they were my peers with respect to age.
Then I became a missionary. I was nothing special, so the mystique of being a missionary disappeared. You’d think I had learned my lesson but…
Then there were the leaders in the mission. The MP, AP, ZL, DL, senior companion. Many of them were heroes.
Then I held a few of those callings, the mystique of some of those callings disappeared. You’d think I had learned my lesson but…
Then I returned home and the bishop and stake president were my heroes.
While I never held those callings, I held several other callings that gave me enough access to see how the sausage was made. The mystique disappeared. You’d think I had learned my lesson but…
I suspect I’d find the same with god. Lots of mystique built up. A more obvious choice of hero. Pull the curtain back and what would I find? Probably someone
exactlylike myself. They say, “never meet your heroes.”
Welcome Eevee, I’m glad that you found us! I remember in the the white handbook in the mission. I felt that it was quite impossible to keep all the rules all the time. Whenever I received a new companion, I would find out which rules they felt were the most important and make extra effort to follow those rules to help in getting along with my companion.
Eevee00713 wrote:
After a while, I started getting annoyed by this, because you’re not going to get extra blessings for following a rule you made up.
Yes and no. I think this hinges greatly on what is meant by the word “blessing.” It is such a squishy word. Suppose, you follow the speed limit. The “blessing” might be that you avoid speeding tickets or that you get better gas mileage or that you increase the chance of surviving a collision by driving more slowly. Maybe the blessing is that you help to preserve our society as a nation of laws. Alternatively, if you choose to speed then you might receive the “blessing” of arriving at your destination more quickly. Much like beauty, “blessings” can depend greatly on the eye or perspective of the beholder.The church’s position of LGBTQ+ issues is distressing to many. As more and more members come to know individuals on the LGBTQ+ spectrum personally then it becomes more and more challenging to square the church position/doctrine with the LGBTQ+ people that we know and love.
Welcome, welcome! You are among friends here.
Roy wrote:
The “blessing” might be that you avoid speeding tickets or that you get better gas mileage or that you increase the chance of surviving a collision by driving more slowly. […]
In a recent Sunday the talks were about personal revelation but the topic mostly centered around a variant of the prosperity gospel. If we want personal revelation we have to be more and more and more and more obedient.
I don’t get much out of the Sunday experience at church because all too often we obsess over obedience and obtaining more of something we believe we don’t already have enough of. I find the obsession with obedience and perpetually seeking more to be unfulfilling at best and spiritually toxic at worst. That said, that appears to be where our community’s spiritual insecurities lie so that’s what we spend most of the time discussing at church.
Anyway…
Taking what you’ve written about the blessings of driving slow, a phrase comes to mind. Righteous living is its own reward. The way we teach obedience at church is often a series of nebulous non sequiturs. Drive slow? Expect more convert baptisms in the ward, more access to personal revelation, an answer to a question, some power that will come into your life that will somehow finally sate the insatiable spiritual appetite.
It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor.
But if I’m just a liiiiiiiiiiittle more obedient… then I’ll finally be good enough to get that thing I so desperately want.
Hello Eevee and welcome! I think you’ll fit in great here. Eevee00713 wrote:
…my mission definitely changed how I viewed the gospel and how I chose to live it. My mission was obsessed with obedience, to the point where they were very judgmental and would also pick some of the more strict interpretations of the white handbook. After a while, I started getting annoyed by this, because you’re not going to get extra blessings for following a rule you made up. I also was annoyed at how sometimes common sense would fly out the window and they would focus so much on the letter of the law. Many missionaries also had high levels of hero worship for our mission president. I remember one sister missionary wondering how she could every marry someone who served in a different mission because they just wouldn’t understand church doctrine the same way, since they didn’t have our MP to teach it to them. Anyway, long story short, I got annoyed by all of this so when I returned home from my mission I began evaluating how many things I do that are more church custom/culture and not required for my good standing before God.
My perspective shifted in relation to the gospel and the church on my mission as well. My mission also was obsessed with obedience, as I suspect every mission is. Emotional traumas from before my mission, combined with the isolation I felt, led to my mental health plummeting quickly on my mission. Of course, my difficulties were blamed on my lack of 100% obedience. Apparently, being too depressed to get out of bed at the stroke of 6:30AM was the source of all my problems. My faith in Christ and belief in the gospel was questioned by other missionaries and even my MP.
Long story short, it changed how I view everything. It’s where I started on the path that led to my faith crisis. Today, I still believe the gospel and try to live it to the best of my understanding and ability. But, I have an extreme dislike for the culture that is so prevalent in our church. Like you, I also find it very difficult to go to church. The covid excuse expired about a year ago for me. These days, my wife and I explain our infrequent attendance by saying we visit our nearby family’s wards, which is sometimes true.
I say all that basically to say, we are all in a different spot on our spiritual journey, and it’s okay to try to figure out what works for you for where you are at.
Roy wrote:Yes and no. I think this hinges greatly on what is meant by the word “blessing.” It is such a squishy word. Suppose, you follow the speed limit. The “blessing” might be that you avoid speeding tickets or that you get better gas mileage or that you increase the chance of surviving a collision by driving more slowly. Maybe the blessing is that you help to preserve our society as a nation of laws. Alternatively, if you choose to speed then you might receive the “blessing” of arriving at your destination more quickly. Much like beauty, “blessings” can depend greatly on the eye or perspective of the beholder.
I like this explanation, since a lot blessings I believe are rooted in reality. One example, shortly after my dad got back from his mission in Japan, he had a job interview in Japanese. The job interview didn’t go well for him, with there being linguistic misunderstanding between him and the interviewer. Not long after that, he had the opportunity to teach a lesson about the plan of salvation to some Japanese people, and he had no problem speaking the language again and communicating with them.
He interprets this as he had the gift tongues only when he needed to teach the gospel and for no other reason. My thoughts on it are that he learned to speak the language completely in a religious context and that he wasn’t prepared to communicate in a business setting. Is one interpretation more valid than the other? His take on his experience is more mystical and mine more logical, but the real difference really just boils down to how we believe God operates. And there is probably truth to both of our perspectives.
Welcome Eevee! I hope you post often. Consider posting one issue at a time, getting perspectives, deciding what you honestly think about the issue, and moving forward from there. That’s what I did and I’ve made my peace with the church — except when the leaders come at me for different reasons and I have to decide how to handle it. Welcome to the forum! My mission presidents were a Fortune 500 CEO and the founder of Canada’s largest oil company. I emulated them at every point possible, because I wanted to be successful, faults be damned.
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