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There was a conference quote going around a few years ago that went like this: Quote:“Understanding of the gospel changes behavior better than an understanding of behavior changes behavior”.
I am not sure who said it.
I have reflected on this, and quite frankly, I don’t see how understanding the gospel really changes behavior — except in the case of people who have fallen so far below the standard of functional behavior in society that the gospel really transforms their lives. I personally was always a good person, so when I joined the church, membership was an extension of who I was, and not something that made for a massive transformation in my behavior.
In fact, I would argue that it was the consequences attached to the rules of the religion that changed my behavior the most, not the understanding of faith, repentence, baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost.
For example, as a young adult, I was REALLY interested in sex. I think that without the church rules, and the threat of ex-communication, I would have indulged regularly with different girlfriends. Not one-night stands, but with women with whom I had committed relationships and who didn’t have a commitment to the law of chastity. Beyond that, the church had little change on my life, particularly the faith, repentence, baptism and GOHG part.
On the other hand, as a scholar in the area of human behavior, I have found that an understanding of the drivers of behavior has had a profound impact on my understanding of human behavior. Behavior modification (the use of external rewards and “unpleasant consequences”) is one set of principles that I used regularly when my children were young, and in my relationships with students in higher education. Understanding EMDR therapy has had a profound impact on my formerly obsessive tendencies toward things that bothered me. Understanding cognitive mistakes such as those articulated in the
Feeling Good Handbook, or Martin Seligman’s 3 P’s of depression — permanency, pervasiveness, and personalization — have helped me understand why people get depressed and what they must refute in order to get past it. My understanding of personality theory has given me a deep understanding of what motivates people to act the way they do, and how they might use their personality to be productive. What do you think of the truth of the statement in quotes above? Is it true in your estimation?BKP said it. Here’s the quote: Quote:True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior.
To me it’s not a contest but in BKP’s defense he said that one would improve behavior quicker than the other not that one could and the other couldn’t. He didn’t use the word better either, though one could infer that quicker is usually interpreted as better.
Again, I don’t see it as a contest. Whatever helps us improve behavior in the moment we need to improve behavior is okay in my book.
I’ll counter a quote with another quote:
Joseph Smith wrote:Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails over priestcraft. …
… Mormonism is truth, in other words the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints, is truth. … The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.
Given that quote, wouldn’t the study of behavior fall within the gospel? The study of behavior is the study of gospel doctrines. The two are not at odds or in a contest with one another.
I agree, the two don’t compete, and that the understanding of behavior has its benefits in changing behavior. I also think the idea that understanding behavior is encompassed in truth is also important. Whether it’s quicker to change behavior through the gospel lens or the lens of the study of behavior itself, is still an open question for me, though. And then, there is the time-honored argument that we shouldn’t be too wrapped up in the “philosophies of men”, which comes to the fore whenever academic or scientific knowledge conflicts with doctrine…
I think the old “the gospel changes lives” (used by other churches as well) is applicable. There is no question my life is far different that it would have been were I not a Christian or member of the church. I was not necessarily on a great track, although I wasn’t headed for jail or anything that serious although it is quite possible I could have been an alcoholic or addict. Elder Packer’s quote has caught my attention in the past, because it specifically mentions doctrine. if we consider doctrine as pretty much limited to the Doctrine of Christ (faith, repentance, baptism) I do believe faith in Jesus Christ can be an impetus to change (redundancy intended). If he was talking about church dogma, which I think was more likely, I also agree it can change lives but sometimes not in the way he would have intended. This was also an anti-scientific statement with the “study of behavior” being a direct reference to psychology. Like many other things my view of psychology has changed over the years and I have a much more positive view of it than I might have 20 or 30 years ago.
I feel that the LDS church can do wonders for changing the lifestyle of some families. If they were to get baptized and cut out alcohol, drugs, tobacco. Go to church on Sunday’s. Pay tithing (which may also lead to budgeting). and become surrounded with a support network of families living similar lifestyles – Then I could see the behavior of this family change fairly quickly. If that same family were to go to counseling to understand why they drink, smoke, carouse, etc. then similar changes might take significantly longer if ever.
I am not saying that the LDS church is a cult. However, I do think that joining a cult would also produce very fast behavior change results and for similar reasons.
There have been more than one occasion that some GAs have shown they’re not friendly to psychology related things (A statement made by Ballard dismissing anxiety and depression comes to mind). Like others have said, I don’t believe it’s an either/or thing. The gospel and psychology can go hand in hand. One thing I’ve really enjoyed watching is the psychologist Jordan Peterson’s biblical series, where he dives into bible stories and explores the psychological meanings of them. And he does it from the perspective of someone who is not a believer. Very thought provoking stuff. Anyways, back to the question about the statement, I do think there is a small amount of truth to it. Growing up with the gospel, I made it through my early years fairly unscathed. In my late teens, I had a few opportunities to, putting it gently, make some teenage dreams come true. Had I not been marinated in religious values from birth, that was a Venus fly trap I would’ve only too happily landed on. I doubt any amount of teaching from a purely psychological or behavioral perspective would’ve provided me the same ability to reject those opportunities.
Now, does that count as an example of “changing” behavior? Probably not, but the gospel was at least valuable in preventing behavior.
To the hammer every problem is a nail. Church leaders tend to be hammer types in that they feel that almost every problem can be solved with the gospel. In addition, they may feel that talking around in circles about behaviors and motivations and needs will not be very successful in delivering the results that they want.
Image the quote as follows, “The study of hammering in nails with maximum efficiency will fix problems faster than the study of problems will fix problems.” In other words, I don’t really need to understand you or your problem. I have a system that will work for everything. It’s hammer time!
I’ll resist the urge to post a dancing M.C. Hammer. This thought was triggered by your joke of the day post. I think there’s also an element of competition in the mix.
I once had a local leader that had a real burr in his saddle over secularism. He’d go on a rant in every talk and any time he got an opportunity to get up on his soap box. I couldn’t figure out what the big deal was. It truly felt like the main issue was that there are people out there being good and decent and god isn’t getting all the credit for it.
I think there’s an element of that in the quote about the study of behavior. There are people out there solving problems and they’re doing it without giving a church credit. Maybe it creates a little jealousy, maybe it creates a little insecurity, and now a portion of a lesson gets dedicated to tearing the competing idea down.
On my mission, a missionary indicated the Book of Mormon has the answers to allof life’s problems. He was calling it “The Answer Book”. That mystified me. There ARE some strategies for dealing with problems we experience in life in the BOM, but it’s all at a very high level — the way it should be for a book meant to speak to generations who will have different fabric in their life’s problems, but ultimately, the same broad elements. But as a guide for solving life’s problems, I find it rather limited. This is after reading it back to back 10 times.
What I have found does help, is secular wisdom based on research, practice, and academic study. For example, I think the Book of Mormon is light on marital advice. For that, people need to be reading marriagebuilders.com and Imago therapy, to name two sets of theories of marital happiness I have read. This wisdom isn’t at odds with the gospel, it is in harmony with it, or netural to it. Examples:
Imago Therapy:
a) much marital angst is a result of childhood experiences that were never processed properly
b) Appreciation dialogue (simple appreciation of what your spouse does for you) builds marital happiness
c) A couple’s dialog format based on the send-receive model of communication aids in effective communication.
d) A Behavior Change Request Dialog is an effective way of asking your spouse to start or stop doing something important to you.
MarriageBuilders:
a) Parties to a marriage have emotional needs, which is satisfied lead to love, and if neglected, lead to withdrawal
b) There are certain love busters which, if allowed to happen, destroy love
c) The Policy of Joint Agreement — don’t make any decisions until both parties to the marriage agree to the ultimate solution.
I guess, if you went “backwards” and tried to find passages in the BoM that ALLUDE to these principles you could find them, but they aren’t obvious and really need to be pointed out by a therapist or a good author. Therefore, I don’t see the BoM as being the massive behavior change vehicle that Boyd K Packer made it out to be.
SilentDawning wrote:
On my mission, a missionary indicated the Book of Mormon has the answers toallof life’s problems. He was calling it “The Answer Book”. That mystified me. There ARE some strategies for dealing with problems we experience in life in the BOM, but it’s all at a very high level — the way it should be for a book meant to speak to generations who will have different fabric in their life’s problems, but ultimately, the same broad elements.
When I was in the MTC, one of the teachers said that everyone had problems, and that the church (she said church, not gospel) could solve EVERY problem. It was our job, she said, to figure out how the church could do that and use that to “help” them.
I’ve also heard people make the statement that the BoM can solve all of life’s problems. I agree with you, it’s very high level advice. Hence it’s intended applicability to anyone, anywhere, anywhen. It can provide good starting points for getting direction, but it can’t go very deep. That’s a trait that all scriptures share though.
Take the story of Joseph in Egypt as an example. Saving grain from 7 years of plenty to have food for the following 7 years of famine can provide a message of putting away food storage when times are good. But what specifics does it offer? It doesn’t offer much of a strategy for accumulating the food; just the mention that they saved a fifth of theirs. It doesn’t tell you how to store it in any detail and it doesn’t go over any other survival goods needed beyond food.
It goes no deeper than offering the principle of something. And even then, someone could read the same story and get a totally different message besides food storage.
PazamaManX wrote:
It can provide good starting points for getting direction, but it can’t go very deep. That’s a trait that all scriptures share though.Much agreed. The technical details are up to you to figure out. And there are circumstances that the BoM can’t change — such as chronic illness. You need medical help to alleviate sickness. But the BOM can help you cope through faith, for example, but it can’t solve the problem.
PazamaManX wrote:
When I was in the MTC, one of the teachers said that everyone had problems, and that the church (she said church, not gospel) could solve EVERY problem. It was our job, she said, to figure out how the church could do that and use that to “help” them.I’ve also heard people make the statement that the BoM can solve all of life’s problems. I agree with you, it’s very high level advice. Hence it’s intended applicability to anyone, anywhere, anywhen. It can provide good starting points for getting direction, but it can’t go very deep. That’s a trait that all scriptures share though.
I’ve heard both of these as well and in addition I’ve heard the temple can solve all your problems. Outside the church I’ve heard some other Christians say the Bible has all the answers. The church, scriptures, or temple could possibly help an individual cope with some problems, but they are not the solution to all problems. I think this is all akin to the oft heard advice of pray more, read the Book of Mormon, etc. to overcome faith crisis. Those of us who have actually had the experience know that doesn’t entirely work (and some aspects work better for some than others). In the end it’s up to us to solve our own problems or learn to cope with those things we can’t change and are beyond our control.
I saw a book that said that it would solve half of my problems … so I bought 2!
😆 Roy wrote:
I saw a book that said that it would solve half of my problems …so I bought 2!
😆
😆 😆 Did you buy them from SD’s companion?High-level advice that points you in the right direction is, I guess, the spark that starts the fire. So, in that respect, the scriptures do help us solve most problems. Some of the advice is just to keep working on problems with faith, to have patience, etcetera — all necessary conditions for solving problems. But alone, such advice isn’t very useful unless the person takes the next step by reading books on how to solve the problem, seeking professional help, or otherwise educating themself about the nuts and bolts of solving the problem.
I want to add something — I mentioned this in another thread — that I saw a psychiatrist about some mental health issues I was facing for decades — obsessing over things that bothered me, worrying myself to death, sometimes being really blue for long periods of time, without being formally depressed. The psychiatrist said I had elements of a wide variety of disorders, but not enough in any one category for a firm diagnosis of any one disorder. So, he treated me for depression and anxiety with a drug called Symbiax, which keeps serotonin in the brain for longer periods of time. It worked wonders. My wife and friends say I’m not as fixated on things that bother me, I am calmer, and a better listener. If I skip dosages, I feel a marked increase in my body tension, worry, and need to talk to others about the things that bother me. With medication, I just tend to move past the things that bother me, knowing that I am likely to wear others (and myself) out by focusing on them.
Why am I saying this? Only to rephrase what Boyd K. Packer said to this:
Quote:“Taking medication can change behavior faster than understanding the gospel can change behavior”
😆
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