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August 21, 2022 at 3:27 pm #213189
Anonymous
GuestLast night at a dinner party with a few couples from the ward one conversation came up about a stake president who was talking to a visiting Elder Bednar and he mentioned that he challenged some individuals to…I don’t remember exactly what…but Elder Bednar’s reply to the stake president was intriguing to me. He said when you give that challenge substitute the word challenge for encourage. That to me was meaningful because I have always had an issue with the “challenge” flowed down to members as sounding more like “…I bet you aren’t capable of…prove me wrong” and my internal response is always I don’t accept your challenge. I would however respond to encouragement, makes it sound like it’s for my own good not somebody else’s expectation. For instance, being challenged to read the BoM in a certain amount of time or a whole list of other challenges I’ve heard over the years. Why does this bug me? I thought the recommendation was great advice and I mistakenly remarked that the word “challenge” has been used for many years to which almost everyone at the table at the same time said “it still is”! It was kind of like a warning shot over my bow. Will I never be able to submit totally to all direction, unconditionally walking in step? Why do I have such a problem with being led around without questions? Am I in jeopardy of being a critic of leadership? I’m sure having a hard time assimilating. August 22, 2022 at 12:06 pm #342935Anonymous
GuestI have heard this from my stake presidency as well. They tend to use “invite” and the stake president does seem to take it to heart. Others I’ve observed just use it as different syntax to mean the same thing. In their minds there is no difference in “encourage,” “invite,” or “challenge.” It’s sort of like “Oh, I get it. We’re just using gentler words, so I’ll invite this person to accept this calling, or go to the temple, or staff girl’s camp, etc., just like we always have [wink, wink].” “Here’s our ward goals, I
inviteyou to do them.” August 22, 2022 at 12:38 pm #342936Anonymous
GuestI wish Bednar came to my stake when we were going through the “church of assignments, not volunteers” phase. Maybe he did come through and that’s why it appears to have dried up. 
Despite my rumblings in other threads about ministering and home teaching being the same, tithing settlement and declaration being the same, and other relabeling efforts… words do matter. They may not have a more immediate effect that I’d like to see but over time they can effect change.
August 22, 2022 at 3:00 pm #342937Anonymous
GuestMy understanding of the way it’s supposed to work these days is that the Q15 come to agreement (consensus) on something and while they make announcements to the general membership either via statements/releases or in GC the real dissemination sort of trickles down. These multi-day meetings all of the GAs and AAs attend prior to GC are the training sessions. It is then incumbent on the GAs, especially the “department heads” and area presidencies to ensure the AAs fully comprehend and then train the stake presidents in their coordinating councils. Then, the SPs train their counselors, the high council, and the bishops, who are in turn supposed to fully disseminate to the wards and branches. This all takes time of course, but eventually under the tutelage of the GAs and AAs the SPs get what they’re supposed to get and most likely pass it along as they are instructed. I think the last part – getting it to the general membership and foot soldiers – is where it often breaks down and I think there are a variety of reasons for that (apathy, resistance to change, and just plain old not paying attention among them). Thus for at least a while (probably years in many places) ministering is the same as home teaching and inviting is the same as calling.
But I do agree with you Nibbler, words do matter and even small changes when properly disseminated make a difference.
Are there still going to be those people who want to meet with the bishop the last days of the year to “settle” their tithing? I would wager yes, and can probably name a couple in my own ward. Eventually though I think it will change.
August 22, 2022 at 4:37 pm #342938Anonymous
GuestI also prefer the terms “invite” or “encourage.” For me it is easier to say “no” which is as it should be. Legally, I am a church volunteer. It seems more appropriate that I be invited or encouraged to perform a task – rather than challenged.
August 22, 2022 at 5:18 pm #342939Anonymous
GuestDJ, That sounds like a recipe to ensure that the water never makes it to the end of every row and by the time it reaches the end of some rows it’s been telephone gamed so heavily that the crops end up getting watered with Diet Pepsi.
August 22, 2022 at 9:42 pm #342940Anonymous
GuestI suppose the most immediate way to make such a change would be to do so through a general conference address. August 23, 2022 at 1:50 pm #342941Anonymous
GuestRoy wrote:
I suppose the most immediate way to make such a change would be to do so through a general conference address.
I think they more or less do that. The model I outlined above starts with a GC address or other announcement. I became familiar with the process with Pres. Nelson’s “big changes.” I’m most familiar with how this was supposed to work in ministering, elimination of YMPs and Come Follow Me. In all of those cases the main announcement and overview were announced in GC. The nuts and bolts “how to” came through the SP. For example, the key to the whole ministering thing working is supposed to be the quarterly interviews. Without those it falls apart. Lots of effort was put into helping EQPs understand that and what the interview is supposed to be (and what it isn’t supposed to be). Of course the other complicating factor in that situation is that presidencies are in constant flux, so it’s constant retraining. SPs and high councilors also constantly change. There are challenges for everything to reach the end of the rows, but I’m not sure there’s a better way with such a large organization.
I think getting the word out via GC works to an extent (many people pay no attention to GC, especially outside the US/Canada) but without the training model ministering really would have been rebranded home teaching (which I think is still true in some places where the system has broken down for whatever reason).
August 23, 2022 at 2:09 pm #342942Anonymous
GuestThe word ‘challenge’ at church has always bothered me as well. It just felt like one more tool to manipulate someone into doing something the challenger thought they should be. I hate getting someone to ‘commit’ to something for the same reason. I can’t imagine Christ saying, “I challenge you to follow my teachings.” ‘Invite’ or ‘encourage’ seem closer to what He would say.
Roy wrote:
I suppose the most immediate way to make such a change would be to do so through a general conference address.
That probably is the most efficient way to alter the course of the giant lumbering beast that is the culture of church. GC addresses have been pretty successful with that so far. The ‘Don’t say Mormon’ talk Nelson gave a few years ago was pretty effective in erasing the word from our vernacular. I still hear it from time to time, but never from TBMs.
August 24, 2022 at 6:09 pm #342943Anonymous
GuestJust as a common example: Moroni 10:3-5 is nothing close to a challenge, as we understand that word. It is an exhortation. That is a very different thing, and the difference is important.
(Also, verse 3 lays the foundation of remembering God’s mercy throughout time and, from that foundation, believing he will be merciful to each sincere prayer. With that mindset, an answer becomes expected – which can be self-fulfilling or unlocking, depending on one’s perspective – and which can be difficult for people who are not naturally inclined to feel spiritual confirmation. We butcher the concept in those verses when we focus merely on reading selected verses and praying to ask if the book is true. Just saying. Back to the actual discussion.)
August 25, 2022 at 9:12 am #342944Anonymous
Guestnibbler wrote:
I wish Bednar came to my stake when we were going through the “church of assignments, not volunteers” phase. Maybe he did come through and that’s why it appears to have dried up.
Despite my rumblings in other threads about ministering and home teaching being the same, tithing settlement and declaration being the same, and other relabeling efforts…
words do matter. They may not have a more immediate effect that I’d like to see but over time they can effect change.
Interesting, I have a friend who is a traditional Mormon. Reads scriptures every night, full tithe payer, Bishop of 10 years. He made the comment that to an outsider or newcomer, the church looks like a place where “if you’re not a real go-getter like SilentDawning you can’t have salvation”.
Following this line of reasoning, I think the policies and approaches to many of life’s problems and the language we use are caused by the achievement-oriented, policy-making, language-creating folks at the top of the hierarchy. They are all highly successful people with strong achievement motivation. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be able to get where they are. Presenting something as a “challenge” speaks to the achievement motivation of a person. And if we use McLelland’s 3-needs Theory (everyone has different doses of Need for Achievement, Need for Power, and Need for Affiliation), the use of the term “challenge” seems to speak to a person’s Need for Achievement. And, anyone who has been a leader at the local level knows that A LOT of people aren’t in the church to feed their need for achievement — more like the need for affiliation.
August 26, 2022 at 3:46 pm #342945Anonymous
GuestThat is a very good point SD. To present something as a “challenge” may be very effective for certain personality types. August 27, 2022 at 1:16 am #342946Anonymous
GuestMany people need to be challenged. many don’t. That is why I am okay with apostles who approach things differently. Just like John and Peter in the Bible, we have Wirthlin and McConkie, Uchtdorf and Bednar, Orson and Parley Pratt, etc. We also have more than we realize quite a few who legitimately could be described as moderate. (Packer is a great example of someone who was quite moderate for most of his time in the Q12 but who is remembered by many as an extreme conservative due to his obsession with sexual matters in the last years of his life. It became his soapbox and wiped out all of the moderate and even somewhat liberal things he said decades previously.)
August 27, 2022 at 11:55 pm #342947Anonymous
GuestKipper wrote:
Last night at a dinner party with a few couples from the ward one conversation came up about a stake president who was talking to a visiting Elder Bednar and he mentioned that he challenged some individuals to…I don’t remember exactly what…but Elder Bednar’s reply to the stake president was intriguing to me. He said when you give that challenge substitute the word challenge for encourage. That to me was meaningful because I have always had an issue with the “challenge” flowed down to members as sounding more like “…I bet you aren’t capable of…prove me wrong” and my internal response is always I don’t accept your challenge. I would however respond to encouragement, makes it sound like it’s for my own good not somebody else’s expectation. For instance, being challenged to read the BoM in a certain amount of time or a whole list of other challenges I’ve heard over the years. Why does this bug me? I thought the recommendation was great advice and I mistakenly remarked that the word “challenge” has been used for many years to which almost everyone at the table at the same time said “it still is”! It was kind of like a warning shot over my bow. Will I never be able to submit totally to all direction, unconditionally walking in step? Why do I have such a problem with being led around without questions? Am I in jeopardy of being a critic of leadership? I’m sure having a hard time assimilating.
Sometimes words have consequences. I have never had a problem with leadership – but I have resistance and sometimes bitterness with those that think they have authority over others. Sometimes people speak their thoughts that I interpret very differently than what they intended. For whatever reason – those that I have gone through trauma with – I tend to understand and respect regardless of their poor choice of terms.
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