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October 4, 2022 at 9:54 am #213211
Anonymous
GuestWhat do you think of the literary quality of the Book of Mormon? I started reading it again recently, and at first was impressed that someone with Joseph Smith’s education could write something of such quality. But then I remembered reading the JS History which is actually quite well written, meaning somewhere along the line he learned to write decent English. So, he would have been capable given his native language ability to write the Book of Mormon rather than translate it, as he claimed. It also occurred to me that many writers have written very long novels requiring great imagination, such as John Milton who wrote Paradise Lost, which can be construed as as religious text. So it’s reasonable to assume that if JS was a genius with the English language he could have conceived the whole panorama of events in the Book of Mormon.
What do you think of the overall literary/writing quality of the Book of Mormon?
October 4, 2022 at 12:31 pm #343172Anonymous
GuestSilentDawning wrote:
What do you think of the literary quality of the Book of Mormon? I started reading it again recently, and at first was impressed that someone with Joseph Smith’s education could write something of such quality. But then I remembered reading the JS History which is actually quite well written, meaning somewhere along the line he learned to write decent English. So, he would have been capable given his native language ability to write the Book of Mormon rather than translate it, as he claimed.It also occurred to me that many writers have written very long novels requiring great imagination, such as John Milton. So it’s reasonable to assume that if JS was a genius with the English language he could have conceived the whole panorama of events in the Book of Mormon.
What do you think of the overall literary/writing quality of the Book of Mormon?
1. There are amazing, quote-able parts that rival “A Christmas Carol” in terms of pricking the social conscience. There are parts that are easy to visualize. In terms of fantasy writing, there are better authors out there who design more compelling environments and characters. The problem is that it isn’t sold as “fantasy” and the “literal history claims” are questionable. So it’s 2nd or 3rd rate in both categories because it winds up being in both categories.
2. In terms of believability, I don’t know what to think. I believe that Joseph Smith understood that he was receiving revelation from God. I don’t have a strong belief in God right now, so whether Joseph Smith was speaking for/inspired by God in terms of creating the Book of Mormon – it doesn’t matter to me. At this point, I wouldn’t have left to go to Missouri/Nauvoo/Out West based on a belief in Joseph’s words – and I don’t think I would have been a mob member or sanctioned my husband and male family members in being part of the mobs against the Mormons. I do believe that Joseph Smith was less inspired then he thought he was.
October 4, 2022 at 2:09 pm #343173Anonymous
GuestBack in the old college days (longer than I like to think about now) as an education major I had to take a class called History and Philosophy of Education. The instructor was one of the more charismatic of the bunch and despite a rather dry textbook made the class somewhat interesting. Long story short and condensing the part of the class that applies here, free and appropriate education as we know it today is a relatively recent construct. Likewise, 1810s-20s education in the US was not at all like what we see portrayed on TV in shows like Little House on the Prairie with Miss Crabtree (50-60 years after JS). I know we get this “uneducated farm boy” narrative (even from current apostles) but the truth is Joseph was probably of at least average education in his day when the only schools that existed in the US were in larger cities and were tuition based (often Catholic). Joseph’s education (and he was educated, he could read and write and do math, that’s never debated) likely took place at home with the King James Bible as the reading text, probably very similar to his neighbors’ education. Point number 2: There is a difference between intelligence and education. There are intelligent and educated people; there are intelligent uneducated people (sometimes not under that person’s control); there are unintelligent educated people (we’ve all encountered them); and there are unintelligent uneducated people.
Point number 3: The English language of Joseph’s day tended to be much more wordy and “flowery” than English today. One need only read some older literature see the evidence of this (Charles Dickens, one of my favorites, is an good example).
I believe Joseph Smith was a genius, or at least very intelligent. As stated I believe as a youth he was of average education but there is also evidence he sought further education and that he did benefit from that learning over his lifetime.
What do (I) think of the overall literary/writing quality of the Book of Mormon?I don’t believe the Book of Mormon is a history of ancient American people, and I don’t believe there were Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites, or anything else. I do believe in the
possibilityof Joseph being “inspired” or the BoM being revealed to him by God. In that regard, similar to Amy, I believe Joseph thought he was more inspired than he actually was. I believe Joseph was trying to write a book that looked, acted, and sounded like scripture (even though the chapter and verse divisions we know were not present in the first editions). Combining the general wordy language of the day, the desire to create new scripture, and Joseph’s intellect (possibly supplemented by that of Emma, Oliver Cowdery and others), I believe the Book of Mormon to mostly be a construct of Joseph’s own. One final side note, and this was brought back to mind by Elder Rasband’s “flood the earth with the BoM” GC talk: Today missionaries tend to lead with Joseph and the first vision (we always did in the days of my flip book mission). The church’s first missionaries did not – they led with the Book of Mormon (and most of them were probably unaware of the first vision). Despite any misgivings or doubts I might have about the BoM, I do believe it is a good book about God and Jesus Christ and that it can and does bring people closer to God and Christ.
October 4, 2022 at 10:59 pm #343174Anonymous
GuestDarkJedi wrote:
Joseph’s education (and he was educated, he could read and write and do math, that’s never debated) likely took place at home with the King James Bible as the reading text, probably very similar to his neighbors’ education.
The quote that most often gets used to demonstrate how improbable this was is from Emma Smith’s interview with Her grown son on the matter. She said that JS could not write a well worded letter. This is clearly hyperbole at best and dishonest at worst. We have examples of letters that JS wrote or dictated. Some very impressive samples.In this same interview Emma denied that polygamy occurred. Therefore, I take the whole interview with a grain of salt and believe that she was trying to protect Joseph’s legacy.
Bottom line, I don’t need the BoM to be miraculous in order to gain value from it. At the same time, I do not believe it to be “the Word of God.” I do understand that other people may take great value in miraculous origin stories.
October 5, 2022 at 1:20 am #343175Anonymous
GuestRoy — and everyone else — what do you believe about the Bible — is it the Word of God, given by inspiration? October 5, 2022 at 11:59 am #343176Anonymous
GuestRoy wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
Joseph’s education (and he was educated, he could read and write and do math, that’s never debated) likely took place at home with the King James Bible as the reading text, probably very similar to his neighbors’ education.
The quote that most often gets used to demonstrate how improbable this was is from Emma Smith’s interview with Her grown son on the matter. She said that JS could not write a well worded letter. This is clearly hyperbole at best and dishonest at worst. We have examples of letters that JS wrote or dictated. Some very impressive samples.In this same interview Emma denied that polygamy occurred. Therefore, I take the whole interview with a grain of salt and believe that she was trying to protect Joseph’s legacy.
Bottom line, I don’t need the BoM to be miraculous in order to gain value from it. At the same time, I do not believe it to be “the Word of God.” I do understand that other people may take great value in miraculous origin stories.
I agree that this is often used and also agree that it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Much of what Joseph “wrote” was dictated, but not all of it was and we do have examples that contradict what Emma alleged.
And of course I also don’t need the Book of Mormon to meet the certain criteria of being miraculous to find good in it.
October 5, 2022 at 12:19 pm #343177Anonymous
GuestSilentDawning wrote:
Roy — and everyone else — what do you believe about the Bible — is it the Word of God, given by inspiration?
This is something I have mildly struggled with for a long time, even prior to being a church member. I do not believe the Bible (or Book or Mormon, PoGP or D&C) to be the “word of God” as in being directly from the mouth of God. It is all filtered through men and is their interpretation/understanding.
My personal experiences with revelation has never been words, it’s more of impressions. I can’t put those impressions into words, there just aren’t words for it. I think that is the major difficulty for scripture writers (including Joseph Smith) – there aren’t words for their impressions/feelings.
October 5, 2022 at 12:31 pm #343178Anonymous
GuestSilentDawning wrote:
Roy — and everyone else — what do you believe about the Bible — is it the Word of God, given by inspiration?
I believe that the Bible is the collection of works that were prioritized and kept by a community/tribe with specific expectations and themes about their relationship with God.
I find some of the stories inspirational and informative – Jewish, Greek, and Roman writings are the foundation for a lot of Western Civilization community rules and outlook.
Mostly, I view it the same way I view stories from my children on “what happened” when I wasn’t there to observe the situation myself. It’s not a case of “I know better then them” – it’s a case of “I ask my kids what happened and get very distinctive, unique accounts biased on what they saw and what they want me to know”.
– There are discrete segments to the narrative.
– There are developmental factors at play (what they are able to see/not see, mean/not mean, and age-specific stuff).
– There is specific meaning assigned throughout that it is useful to know about.
– There are biases at play (the kids want to appear “right” and “justified” and all that).
I think the most important part is learning to tread carefully because most people assume (thoughtfully and without thought) that the Bible is given by inspiration – and most of it is just bickering about what to do about it with a “Pass/Fail” Inspired and relevant [Adam & Eve story for example] vs irrelevant [Noah’s ark architectural description] categorization.
October 5, 2022 at 12:41 pm #343179Anonymous
GuestDarkJedi wrote:My personal experiences with revelation has never been words, it’s more of impressions. I can’t put those impressions into words, there just aren’t words for it. I think that is the major difficulty for scripture writers (including Joseph Smith) – there aren’t words for their impressions/feelings.
I would add that in some circumstances, the full “message” is being multiplied from previous statements and experiences that are hard to shortcut. I have a funny example.
BACKGROUND
I am the “family translator” for my youngest daughter – I can usually connect the dots that others can’t because I take her seriously and have observed how she thinks for a very long time. NOTE: I don’t feel that I get “bonuses” in this area because I am her mother. I don’t think it is “intuition” at all – I worked really hard setting up conversational environments to learn about my daughter.
STORY
1. I brought up “Christmas” tentatively (because I am a part-time Christmas Elf volunteer in my family).
2. My daughter told me about Halloween.
3. I explained that “Santa doesn’t care about Halloween, we are talking about Christmas”.
4. She told me she wanted to wish Santa a “Happy Birthday”.
These sound entirely disconnected and should be dismissed out of hand… but…
In the world of a 6 year old (especially my 6 year old), here is how they are connected.
Halloween = Candy
Christmas = Presents and Candy
Birthday = Presents
MORAL OF THE STORY
My daughter recently celebrated a birthday with presents and candy, and wanted Santa to have the same pleasant experience (she would prefer that it is a shared experience with her so that she gets more candy/treats and association).
To get that level of translation, it required years of working teaching her that she could tell me things, reviewing what is important to her in terms of her age and experiences, and what she values (shared experiences, helping others, treats).
October 6, 2022 at 7:39 pm #343180Anonymous
GuestAmyJ wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
Roy — and everyone else — what do you believe about the Bible — is it the Word of God, given by inspiration?
I believe that the Bible is the collection of works that were prioritized and kept by a community/tribe with specific expectations and themes about their relationship with God.
Yes. I agree with Amy. I also am not committed to any one theory about God and how he communicates with us. For example, God could be a construct created out of our collective human mind because of human needs. This would mean that such a God does not exist outside of humans and cannot do any communication on their own. However, I believe that by reading the Bible or other religious texts you can learn about and receive a form of communication from this conceptual deity. I would not characterize it as the “Word of God” because that seems much too black and white but I might say Voice of God, or spirit of God, or impressions of God.
I would interpret the BoM in much the same way as I do many bible texts. I just feel that JS had the misfortune to live in the age of the printing press where his claims have been open to much more scrutiny because we have so much more information about the time period of JS.
To put it another way, I believe that religious texts can give a picture of God even if they are not historically accurate.
October 7, 2022 at 12:45 pm #343181Anonymous
GuestRoy wrote:
To put it another way, I believe that religious texts can give a picture of God even if they are not historically accurate.
I think we decide what texts to prioritize as “religious” – and that it has moved far beyond (and still includes) texts these days – especially non-religious ones.
1. I had a conversation with my very active sister-in-law about my expanded view of scripture (we make scripture by ascribing meaning to words and not the other way around where the words are innately scripture-worthy). Under my definition, Western culture has made quite a few stories to be scriptural variations – including stories like “Lord of the Rings”, “Star Wars”, and “The Matrix”. My sister in law agreed with me (which was shocking) and added that she always includes at least 1 movie quote from “The Lord of the Rings” in her talks at church.
2. Controlling what is considered scripture defines a church organization (Roman Catholic vs Greek Catholic churches in a very broad sense), and what gets passed down to the next generation.
NOTE: I think that is part of the pushback about “Heavenly Mother”. If we talk about Her, we are going to sing and write about Her – which can be become “scriptural” in the sense of maintained and venerated writings about Her – which means the Evangelicals will have more reason to boot us from the “Religious Right” table to the “Other” table (that includes a variety of “Everyone Else” religious-wise).
The older I get, the more apt the quote by Mark Twain (I think he is the author) becomes:
“God made Man in His own Image, so Man decided to return the favor.”
It takes a lot of thinking and Stage 4 Angst to get to the point where you can say, “The way things are [the traditions/scriptures/protocols/doctrines/policies] are because I need/want/insist on/assume the things this specific way – without regard to of the perspectives of others, the handicaps/preferred way of being (extroverts vs introverts), or evidences from the physical realm around me.”
October 7, 2022 at 3:28 pm #343182Anonymous
GuestOne reason I value the Book of Mormon highly is that it is a central part of my religious heritage. Another reason is that I love a lot of the things it says – which is heightened by my right and ability to interpret it as I do personally, understanding the general interpretation(s) of the general membership and leadership. I like to interpret stories, and my interpretations often are not orthodox. I have recognized that need and valued that ability since the first time I read it as a very young child. That realization that I see things differently than many people has been foundational for me over the course of my lifetime, and the Book of Mormon was the catalyst for that realization.
(I used to think I read it for the first time in the 1st grade when we had a semester-long reading activity. I couldn’t stand reading books meant for kids my age, so my teacher gave me credit for one book per chapter read in a “regular chapter book”. I would have to count the chapters in the Book of Mormon to figure out how many “books” I was credited for reading it, but I distinctly remember she had to verify with my parents that I read it before giving me the credit. When my mother passed away, I got her old Book of Mormon and saw a note inside the cover listing the times she read that particular book. She had a note after two dates when I read it to her. The second one was during 1st grade. The first one was the summer before 1st Grade. I was 6 years old.)
Here are three simple examples of things I realized early on about my own interpretation that are literary reasons I love the Book of Mormon:
1) I see in the story a description of Nephi as an entitled, spoiled. insensitive, favorite young man – and it makes him more relatable to me than what I see as the standard caricature described most often in church. When Laman and Lemuel said the Lord “maketh no such things known unto us” (after Nephi asked if they had “enquired of the Lord” about Lehi’s vision), I see it as an honest response that they were not visionary people like their father and brother. Nephi then chastised them for something they could not control – which I see as a probable pattern in their relationship. As a social scientist by nature and training, I can empathize with Laman and Lemuel, since I also am not a classically visionary person. I wonder how I would have reacted if one of my younger brothers was my dad’s favorite and always criticized me for being honest about who I was.
2) I am fascinated by the story of the sons of Mosiah and Old Alma rejecting their birthrights, and, particularly, the story of Young Alma’s initial rejection of his father’s religion. I look at the political story of that time (a minority ruling a majority) and can see the similarities throughout history (in Islam but also in our own modern US history, with the Religious Right trying to maintain governance of an increasingly larger majority who do not believe as they do). The historical parallels with that entire story and so many other cultures is fascinating to me.
3) It is crystal clear to me that the racial and sexual bias presented in the Book of Mormon is not “doctrinal” but rather sociological and historically representative. There is a
crystal clearstatement early on that God does not judge based on race or sex, followed by a description of how the people could not accept and live that divine standard. Part of that inability was the inter-marrying of part of the original family with a much larger, darker-skinned population and the natural reaction of identifying the “enemy” based on their subsequent darker skin. That identification was the only way to make a quick calculation of danger, which is consistent with human history. That lasted for a few centuries until the visit of Jesus wiped out all such distinctions and the “-ites” disappeared as the result of generalized intermarriage. There are numerous more examples, but these three are enough to illustrate my point.
I don’t default to the Book of Mormon being an actual historical record, but it absolutely fascinates me as a literary-historical record of some kind.
October 9, 2022 at 11:47 pm #343183Anonymous
GuestOld-Timer wrote:
1) I see in the story a description of Nephi as an entitled, spoiled, insensitive, favorite young man – and it makes him more relatable to me than what I see as the standard caricature described most often in church. When Laman and Lemuel said the Lord “maketh no such things known unto us” (after Nephi asked if they had “enquired of the Lord” about Lehi’s vision, I see it as an honest response that they were not visionary people like their father and brother. Nephi then chastised them for something they could not control – which I see as a probable pattern in their relationship. As a social scientist by nature and training, I can empathize with Laman and Lemuel, since I also am not a classically visionary person. I wonder how I would have reacted if one of my younger brothers was my dad’s favorite and always criticized me for being honest about who I was.Since I came to StayLDS I heard more than one person indicate that Nephi was a prig — an interpretation of the Nephi stories that I hadn’t heard before. I can relate to it. I have a younger brother who emerged as the family favorite given the way that he stepped up to help my parents in their old age. He bought their house like a reverse mortgage so they could continue staying there when they were running out of money. He was generous with his money in making it comfortable for them. They eventually changed their will, forgiving the debt on the house he bought from him, essentially reducing the inheritance of myself and my sister, both of whom are older than this favorite brother. We both resented this and were saddened that our parents would openly play favorites. I wouldn’t say we were jealous, but we were definitely not on the same page with my parents and were definitely dismayed by our parents’ behavior.
My brother has a double income, no kids, is a successful millionaire from his small business, and lives within driving distance (unlike me who is in a whole different country 24 driving hours away and not yet prepared for retirement in my late 50’s), and it was practical for him to manage the house at that close distance — not so for me.
He has routinely chastised me about things over the years. He gives me “spiritual advice” about my relationships with others in long texts. I don’t appreciate any of it. One is that he’s my younger brother. Maybe it’s wrong in our society (unlike Asian societies) to believe that elders deserve greater respect, but that was my gut reaction. It bothers me when my younger brother takes it upon himself to chastise me and talk down to me that way.
There is no way he should be telling me the difference between right on wrong on matters of opinion.
Therefore, I can understand this interpretation from Old Timer. I also think the story of Nephi has a lot in common with the story of Joseph, Jacob’s favorite son.
It goes to show how even a fictitious narrative can be rich in topics for discussion.
******
I think I told everyone years ago, I tried to write a couple of BOM chapters in the style of language of the Book of Mormon — my own attempt at scripture. Now STOP — I wasn’t serious about distributing it, or claiming it was inspired either, or in any way challenging JS as an inspired writer or anything that suggests I was going off the rails. I make no claims to the prophetic chair. Nor was it a precursor to starting my own religion.
But I wanted to see if I could feel the Spirit when I read it afterward. I thought I might also be putting myself in the position of JS to see what he might have thought or felt.
I put it in the same format as the Book of Mormon with the Chapter Name and Number, the preamble in hyphenated italics, columns, verse numbers, and a lot of “And it came to pass” and “Behold” statements. It was the story of an arrogant son/heir of a king who was unkind to others, self-absorbed, and narcissistic. Then he has an epiphany and changes to become righteous and service-minded to his people. It had a couple of quotable quotes I created — maxims about service and self-discovery — and then left it to sit for a while. I came back to it a while later and read it thoughtfully, and guess what — I felt the Spirit.
I feel the spirit in so many different situations — when in harmony with family members, hearing people speak, watching touching movies, during EMDR therapy — I realize that JS didn’t have a corner on the Spirit when he translated/wrote the Book of Mormon. So, it doesn’t have to be a literary work like Shakespearian works, it just needs to speak the truth and people will feel spiritual when they read it — like they do when they experience other things.
October 11, 2022 at 4:44 pm #343184Anonymous
GuestSilentDawning wrote:
I have a younger brother who emerged as the family favorite given the way that he stepped up to help my parents in their old age.
I have an uncle that stayed on the family farm when everyone else moved away. He is the youngest brother. Another uncle moved back in retirement to help run the farm and another that would regularly come up during summer time (he was a school teacher) to harvest the crops. After Grandpa died, Grandma became quite ill and the youngest brother was her principle caretaker. During this time Grandma changed the will and left everything to the younger brother. To make matters worse, there was no communication of this and it was a big surprise to everyone (except the younger brother) when Grandma died. Unsurprisingly this led to a lawsuit with brothers pitted against brother. (it was unbelievably hurtful to find out after the fact that everyone but the younger brother had been disinherited)When I was visiting for Grandma’s funeral (and before we learned about the will change), this younger uncle told me about how his son (my cousin) had worried about getting a summer job to save up money for college but he was needed on the farm. My uncle said that they had purchased some steer calves and let his son raise them in his spare time. The son later sold those steers for a significant profit and for more than he could have hoped to earn from a job in town. My uncle told me that the morale of the story was that if you do right by the farm it will take care of you. Looking back, I think the story was somewhat autobiographical and that the younger uncle sees himself as the hero in the story that is only getting his just reward.
October 11, 2022 at 8:16 pm #343185Anonymous
GuestMy extended family has an experience that mirrors Lehi’s family situation. One of the older brothers regularly took care of the family homestead and his parents when they became too old, largely because the youngest brother had promised to do so, in exchange for some of the family land on which he built his house, but failed to do so. Upon the father’s death, the youngest brother, who already had a well-paying job, inherited all of the family land. He sold it, eventually, at a major profit. He didn’t share any of that profit with his siblings, most of whom were not as well off to begin with. I am certain the youngest brother didn’t see the injustice, especially to his brother who had spent so much of his free time away from his own family in order to help their parents, but the resentment among the siblings was real and powerful.
On the other hand, my extended family also has an experience where the oldest brother was given the family land when the father passed away. He ended up selling it when a population explosion hit the area – for a mind-boggling profit. The rest of the siblings were relatively poorer, and the oldest brother split his profits only among his own children – who now are much better off financially than their cousins.
The resentment hasn’t destroyed either family, completely, but it caused major issues at the time among the siblings that have continued in some way to this day.
The story of Nephi and his brothers is a common one, right down to the individual dynamics and self-justifications.
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