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I was having dinner with a Catholic friend of mine who was also my calculus professor at a JC. He told me that in order to gain access to Vatican archives, you need to be (1) a world famous scholar, and (2) very old. That limits the damage you can do to the Catholic church. In reply, I told him the story of John Turner, who wrote Brigham Young, Pioneer Prophetand is a Presbyterian, and teaches down the road from me. He said that to access LDS archives, just show up like you don’t have an axe to grind. I had always thought that the LDS Church was more squeamish about opening up its history because it was a younger tradition. Last week I encountered one of these exmo videos where they had a cult expert, Andrew Gold on. (He’s a journalist, not a scholar). He recounted how Christianity for a millennium didn’t allow lay people to access the Bible, much like how Scientology operates now. Matt Bowman said that even at America’s founding, Catholics still didn’t allow people to read the Bible without a priest to supervise. A lot of exmos like to feel validated in their decision. The Steve Hassan’s reception by academia has been mixed, at best. His BITE modle is pretty much considered a laughingstock by sociologists, although I think it can be useful to a degree. Here’s a good article on
himAnyhow, I don’t have any issues with what the Catholic Church does; it invented modern science and has been a great repository of knowledge. But I think at 200 years, we’re ahead of schedule.
I believe the church has recentlygotten better with giving access to information in its archives, the Joseph Smith Papers project and opening up the information in Handbook 1 to the public a few years ago as examples. I also believe there are things that are in the archives that have extremely tight access control. I also believe there are many things in the church archives that fall under the “security through obscurity” umbrella, buried so deep no one even knows the information exists. Only allowing access to people without an axe to grind isn’t too dissimilar to only allowing priests to access the Bible. Only allowing people heavily supervised access isn’t too dissimilar to only allowing people to read the Bible under the supervision of a priest. We still have strict control to access to information for most anything temple related.
I’m not saying it’s wrong. In some cases like rare items you wouldn’t want to give people free reign to the physical object, though I suppose the information could be scanned and made available to the public (JS Papers).
Melvin Jones wrote:But I think at 200 years, we’re ahead of schedule.
We should be, we started from a position where we were already standing on the shoulders of giants. Still, I think we have quite a way to go before we catch up to the maturity level of the Catholic church. Though like you say, we’ve come far relatively quickly.
The title of this thread is confusing. Does the word “cult” in this context just refer to a religion? or does it mean a newer and more destructive group? I had an interesting discussion with my 15 year old son about cults. I was saying that some churches and groups can be cult-like in some respects and not in others. Generally that there can be a sliding scale of cultishness.
I do agree somewhat with Andrew Gold’s point that newer religions can be labeled as cults both because they act more cultlike and also because simply being new invites distrust from the establishment. If a religion survives long enough then it usually becomes part of the establishment and then tries to suppress other newer religions from growing.
I think the LDS church, if it had existed in 400 AD, would probably act very similar to the catholic church in the same time period. I believe that the LDS church’s new transparency comes from 1) laws requiring it and 2) the internet.
The internet has been a game changer in many respects. Now, information that organizations would like to keep hidden is easily accessible to anyone with an internet connection. Members can feel blindsided with new information that was withheld by the organizations. In part, we are responding to this need in an effort to get ahead of it. Maybe we can tell the more accurate story but still with a more positive and faith promoting framing.
After reading the linked article, it sounds like Steve Hassan was heavily influenced by his bad experience with the Moonies. We are all, in our own way, products of our history. As I said before, I believe in more of a sliding scale of cultishness. Most religions have some elements or vestiges of cultishness. However, that is not to say that all “cults” are just young religions that haven’t grown up yet.
I do believe that damaging cults do exist and that they exploit their followers.
I am not familiar with the idea that the catholic church invented modern science. I would like more information on this subject.
Islam invented modern science in many ways. They were WAY ahead of the Catholic Church for a long time – doing brain surgeries when Catholics bragged about never washing their bodies. The Mongol conquests set back medicine dramatically.
Back to the rest of the discussion.
nibbler wrote:We should be, we started from a position where we were already standing on the shoulders of giants. Still, I think we have quite a way to go before we catch up to the maturity level of the Catholic church. Though like you say, we’ve come far relatively quickly.
We’re ahead of the Catholic church now.
Old-Timer wrote:
Islam invented modern science in many ways. They were WAY ahead of the Catholic Church for a long time – doing brain surgeries when Catholics bragged about never washing their bodies.The Mongol conquests set back medicine dramatically.
Back to the rest of the discussion.
This would be a good discussion.The Catholic church also places bans on studying the human body. Islam had to be scientific to get Mecca’s direction and to observe holidays based on the moon’s state. They fell behind the West at one point.The Catholic Church does not place bans on studying the human body. Admin Note: This post is on thin ice. It is straying from our mission, which is to help people find their own ways to stay LDS. I am locking it to give our admins time to discuss whether or not to allow more comments.
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