Carburetor

This was my moderation in the public thread.

AmyJ, you sound like a magnificent, no-nonsense individual. It’s a good job society didn’t feel sufficiently threatened by you to convince you that you were a filthy lesbian.

****Moderator note**** This sentence is problematic. I believe it to be sarcasm and sarcasm does not translate well in written text. Because, I can’t tell 100% if it is sarcasm then I will address it at face value. 1) If a person were LGBTQ+ then that person would be equally valued and affirmed here. They are “worthy” in every sense of the word. 2) I am having trouble with the implication that a person would or could be convinced into a sexual orientation. I worry that the undertone of that message would be that some people’s sexual identity is not genuine but is the result of being misguided or confused. 3) the term “filthy lesbian” is very inappropriate on its own and would warrant a moderation even if points 1 and 2 were not present. ****End Moderator note****

I confess, it is hardline conservative members whom I most wish to engage with because little is gained by preaching to the choir, and I suspect I was similarly aligned in standing up for the Church for years.

I would leave the responses to Watcher as they are. I just worry about what could be interpreted as you “poking the bear” and how that might turn into a train wreck.

We don’t do argument or trying to convince anyone of anything here. We function largely as a support group. This is a place for each of us to share our story, know that we are not alone or crazy or sinful, and to share support and practices, tactics, or strategies that have enabled us to continue to StayLDS or remain connected to the church in ways that we desire.

If you are trying to “make a difference” by attempting to change Watcher’s position then you are likely to fail and also not using the StayLDS group as intended. From the rules of etiquette:

Please feel free to disagree with anyone. Nobody here has all the answers. We can all benefit from being challenged. This is not a debate club though. There is no winning or losing. Please try to stay supportive and positive with those who might not believe the same way.

Please do not start discussions that lead to a debate with the results of finding the one correct answer to a problem. Topics like this will probably be moderated.

That which is to be “gained” by your participation is primarily internal to you. The hardline LDS position does not seem to be changing (it is changing but slowly enough to seem stationary). Many LDS have much comfort, stability, and structure in believing that church doctrines are fixed and eternal. If we had a magic wand that could pull this out from under them then it would not be kind to use it.

Many of us have gone through a time when we would wish to confront some members/leaders of the church with contradictory information. In theory, this would make us feel good and validate us as they succumb to our shifting worldview under the weight of the facts we have presented. This never seems to go well though. This is often referred to as “dumping.”

Part of my journey to StayLDS has been to hold space in my mind for people to believe in a traditional mindset and to be ok with that. I recognize that the traditional LDS mindset has been more hostile and invalidating for you than it ever was for me and that makes such an effort more difficult.

You have done so much to try to “move the needle” in your own corner of the LDS world with pretty frustrating results. I do worry that some of that desire to create change might continue for you here at StayLDS and that might be part of the reason that feel motivated to engage with someone like Watcher.

Be well friend,

Roy

Don’t blame me, Roy is on top of things.

There have been several recent instances of me sitting back so I can see how it’s done by waiting on Roy to sort it out. :thumbup:

For example he says he believes gay feelings are more nurture than nature and doesn’t really believe others when they say they have always felt that way but also says he has always felt that way. And not wanting to engage with preaching to the choir and trying to change them, but wanting to engage with Watcher and hardline members – the choir presidents. There are some “doctrinal” points with similar incongruities.

Yes, he does seem to feel that in his case his sexuality was influenced by trauma at a young age. I am by no means a psychologist but I assume that such things are possible. We are complex beings. I have tried to push back on his assertions that his experience must hold true for other LGBTQ people as well.

I think that he essentially comes from a position where LGBTQ people have been fundamentally broken by families and society (nurture) and developed their attractions in response. I think the major downside of this interpretation is that it seems to understand SSA as something like a mental illness created by societal conditions and that ideally, we could make changes to society to reduce or even eliminate the amount of individuals being born today that will someday identify as LGBTQ.

I think his thinking goes that if it is a mental illness then our church that is led by God should have been compassionate on such individuals as we tend to be with others with permanent mental challenges (think about our doctrine on people with Down Syndrome for example).

He feels somewhat out of place wherever he goes. He doesn’t feel acceptance from the LDS crowd but then he also has strong ideological differences from those in the LGBTQ movement that see SSA as a perfectly fine and healthy variation on the traditional heterosexual couple.

I think that Carburetor has sacrificed so much of himself to get married to a woman and to form a family that he really needs to believe that it was the noble and right thing to do. I think that he wants church leaders to recognize and admire his achievement and instead they are wary and suspicious of him.

He has deep, deep, deep pain and I am hopeful that we can help him on his journey.

I just locked the thread about Can LGBTQ+ individuals find peace as members of the church?

This was my justification.

:::Moderator Note:::

We seem to be straying from the original question of the thread which is:

Can individuals who identify as LGBTQ+ truly find peace as active members of the LDS Church?

Remember that we at StayLDS are to focused on helping people StayLDS and tackling larger societal trends falls outside of our scope. This is not really a hard rule. We talk about lots of things but try to keep things focused in that direction – how to cope with continuing as members after a crisis of faith.

I believe that this discussion has run its course. The original question has been answered rather thoroughly. If anyone has anything else to post tangential to this subject they can create a new thread on that related topic and this will help to keep the posts organized for those interested parties that may be following along or looking up topics in our archives. Thanks everyone for the great discussion. This thread is now locked.

I tried to be nice about it. I also was becoming increasing uncomfortable with the direction that Carburetor was going in calling LGBTQ+ activists “ideological terrorists” and claiming that they want to do drag shows for kids and teach every type of imaginable coupling in schools. That seemed to me to be assuming things and painting an entire group with the same negative brush.

Thanks for the summary and moderation Roy.

I’m trying to avoid that thread in particular (which will be easy now that it’s closed ) because my response wouldn’t be very kind. That’s my contribution, keeping my mouth shut. :angel:

Thanks, Roy. My life has been crazy busy, and I have missed a lot recently. I really appreciate your effort with him.