Home Page › Forums › General Discussion › Modifications to temple recommend interview with relation to garments
- This topic is empty.
-
AuthorPosts
-
April 14, 2024 at 2:22 pm #213376
Anonymous
GuestThere were a few talks and rumors leading up to general conference that leaders are getting anxious about members being too casual with wearing garments and that the TR interview questions would be amended. It looks like the rumors were true. We got two talks during conference about wearing garments and changes to the TR interview questions were recently announced. Before:
Quote:13. Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?
Wearing the Temple Garment
The temple garment is a reminder of covenants made in the temple and, when worn properly throughout life, will serve as protection against temptation and evil. The garment should e worn beneath the outer clothing. It should not be removed for activities that can reasonably be done while wearing the garment, and it should not be modified to accommodate different styles of clothing. Endowed members should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to answer personal questions about wearing the garment. It is a sacred privilege to wear the garment and doing so is an outward expression of an inner commitment to follow the Savior Jesus Christ.
After:
Quote:13. Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
14. Do you honor your sacred privilege to wear the garment as instructed in the initiatory ordinances?
Wearing the Temple Garment
The garment of the holy priesthood reminds us of the veil in the temple, and that veil is symbolic of Jesus Christ. When you put on your garment, you put on a sacred symbol of Jesus Christ. Wearing it is an outward expression of your inner commitment to follow Him. The garment is also a reminder of your temple covenants. You should wear the garment day and night throughout your life. When it must be removed for activities that cannot reasonably be done while wearing the garment, seek to restore it as soon as possible. As you keep your covenants, including the sacred privilege to wear the garment as instructed in the initiatory ordinances, you will have greater access to the Savior’s mercy, protection, strength, and power.
April 14, 2024 at 2:38 pm #344956Anonymous
GuestThoughts: They broke the one existing question into two. Probably to dedicate one question to garment wearing in an effort to highlight the importance of wearing garments.
- They got rid of the language about seeking guidance from the HG to answer personal questions about wearing the garment. I guess their view is that there’s only one answer so there shouldn’t be any personal questions?
- The “outward expression of an inner commitment” language was retained. I never did like this language. One interpretation of the Gospels is that Jesus didn’t appreciate all of the outward signs of inward commitments that the Pharisees tended to be obsessed with.
- New language about putting the garment back on ASAP if you do have to take it off.
- They got a little more technical with the language, pointing out that the garments are related to the initiatory instead of prior language that tied it to the endowment.
- They shoehorned Jesus into the mix. Name dropping Jesus in this context felt more like a manipulative tactic than anything. Oh, so you don’t think it’s important to wear garments, do you? Well Jesus says, so there!
- The language at the end of the paragraph the interviewer is meant to read feels gross to me. If you wear the garment you have greater access to mercy, protection (I thought they tried to dispel the protection promises), strength, and power. G.R.O.S.S.
Besides, how does one get greater access to mercy? If you can only get partial access, is it still considered mercy… or something else?
One thing that I’ve felt on my personal journey is that I no longer feel the need to attain more strength or power. I already have sufficient for my needs. The Mormon quest for more power, stronger testimonies, always more, more, more feels antithetical to developing spirituality. At least to me.
The rich man is not he who has everything, but the man who wants nothing.
–
The new language feels very manipulative to me. Garments… who cares? It’s time to give it a rest.
April 15, 2024 at 4:15 am #344957Anonymous
Guestnibbler wrote:
The new language feels very manipulative to me. Garments… who cares? It’s time to give it a rest.
I completely agree. IMO, temple recommend interviews should be a time to better understand who the members
of the Ward & Stake are. For example:
-What challenges are they facing?
-How are they dealing with the challenges they have?
-Is there anything “I” can do for you?
When you focus on the garments, it’s easy to see why some members notice & comment if you wear a blue shirt
to sacrament meeting. I did wear a blue shirt to church today. On purpose. Someone did make a comment.
April 15, 2024 at 1:57 pm #344958Anonymous
GuestMinyan Man wrote:
When you focus on the garments, it’s easy to see why some members notice & comment if you wear a blue shirtto sacrament meeting. I did wear a blue shirt to church today. On purpose. Someone did make a comment.
I was thinking about how similar concerns pop up if you are married and not wearing your wedding rings.
For me, I stopped wearing mine because I was doing dishes all the time and had a tough time remembering where I put the rings and nearly losing them. My executive functioning limitations were creating a situation where I was increasingly likely to lose my rings for real – and I do value my rings enough to not want to throw them in the trash, not let them get mulched by something else. My marriage commitment didn’t stop because I wasn’t wearing my rings – because my commitment isn’t about my rings.
This stance brought up a few conversations, but eventually it settled out. The “nail on the coffin” for this conversation came from my husband though.
His fingers swelled up from either the medications he was taking or the shape of his body. We actually had to buy a ring cutter and cut the ring off (carefully) so that he wasn’t cutting the circulation off from his finger.
Since the essence of our marriage right now is learning “how to be in relation with each other” without causing active trauma or re-triggering each other while raising kids – it’s a good thing it’s “not about the rings”.
April 15, 2024 at 3:49 pm #344959Anonymous
GuestAmyJ wrote:
it’s a good thing it’s “not about the rings”.
My wife and I do not wear wedding rings either. I have only ever been asked about it once and I explained that, for my wife and I, we are 100% committed to each other and see no reason to try to advertise to others that we are off the market (anyone that gets to know us for two seconds would know that we are “off the market.”)nibbler wrote:
The “outward expression of an inner commitment” language was retained. I never did like this language. One interpretation of the Gospels is that Jesus didn’t appreciate all of the outward signs of inward commitments that the Pharisees tended to be obsessed with.
I like the outward expression of an inner commitment language. Similar to my wedding ring, it is my inward commitment to my wife that matters and not that I never take the ring off. The rings feel like training wheels to me and we have progressed to the point where they wouldn’t actually help any and actually get in the way. I feel that some Christians decision to wear a cross necklace is similarly an “outward expression of an inner commitment.”However, if we really mean this then it seems strange and counterproductive to police people’s outward expressions. As though the outward expression, for appearances sake, was the most important.
April 15, 2024 at 4:00 pm #344960Anonymous
Guestnibbler wrote:
Endowed members should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to answer personal questions about wearing the garment
I assume that this had been added at some point because bishops across the world were being asked personal questions about how to wear the garment and also accommodate XYZ medical, sexual, or personal situation. They were not prepared to give this sort of advice and felt pretty weird about it and that feedback might have filtered up to top leadership. Eventually, this must have been added to let members know to work these sorts of questions out with the holy spirit for themselves.Now the pendulum is swinging the other way. Leadership is thinking, “Oh no! we told the membership to work this out for themselves and we don’t like how some of them are doing that!” and so this part was removed.
April 15, 2024 at 4:09 pm #344961Anonymous
Guestnibbler wrote:
The language at the end of the paragraph the interviewer is meant to read feels gross to me. If you wear the garment you have greater access to mercy, protection (I thought they tried to dispel the protection promises), strength, and power. G.R.O.S.S.Besides, how does one get greater access to mercy? If you can only get partial access, is it still considered mercy… or something else?
I also dislike this part. The previous wording said “protection against temptation and evil.” I suppose if I were to have an affair then taking off my garments to do the deed would be awkward and might give pause just enough to have second thoughts. That could fit the definition of protection against temptation and evil. By just saying “protection” it seems to slip down again to magical thinking territory.
I am unnerved by the mercy part. What am I to conclude about our church’s definition and doctrine of mercy? Meritocracy?
April 15, 2024 at 4:22 pm #344962Anonymous
GuestRoy wrote:
I feel that some Christians decision to wear a cross necklace is similarly an “outward expression of an inner commitment.”
In the cross necklace example, it’s largely the individual that makes the decision to wear the necklace. I’m sure surrounding culture and traditions factor into an individual’s decision, but ultimately it’s a personal decision.
With the garment, it feels more like the culture imposing its will on the individual. It would be like the local preacher getting onto members of their congregation for
notwearing a cross necklace or someone’s ability to fully participate in their church community being limited because they don’twear a cross necklace. In that sense, the garment is less a personal expression of belief and more a cultural obligation or expectation.
You could always argue that if you don’t want to wear garments, don’t get endowed. The issue there is that we put unrelated goals behind the endowment. What if you want to be sealed but don’t want to wear garments for the rest of your life? What if you want to serve a mission but don’t want to wear garments for the rest of your life? What if you just want the ordinance that is billed as being required for your salvation but you don’t want to wear the garment for the rest of your life? You’re out of luck because you have to go through the initiatory in order to do those things.
Unfortunately the temple has that effect. The requirements inadvertently apply pressure on someone to do or accept something they may otherwise never do or accept. I’ve heard many anecdotes of people that only wanted to get sealed/married and garments and the endowment ended up becoming a burden they had to endure. They couldn’t do one without being obligated to do the other.
April 15, 2024 at 4:28 pm #344963Anonymous
GuestNot to belabor, but also with the cross necklace example, the individual is free to stop wearing the necklace at any time. You don’t put it on once and then are expected to wear it the rest of your life. A person could also develop a nickel allergy and begin to develop a rash around their neck. Their preacher isn’t going to insist that they don’t alter the materials of the necklace to pure silver to account for the allergy. Their preacher isn’t going to prevent them from attending a wedding if the person decides to stop wearing the necklace.
…I’m off track. My only point above was the origin of the outward expression. Something we choose to be expressive vs. something that’s chosen for us to be expressive.
It stops feeling expressive of
mewhen someone else is making the decisions. April 15, 2024 at 10:23 pm #344964Anonymous
Guestnibbler wrote:
…I’m off track. My only point above was the origin of the outward expression. Something we choose to be expressive vs. something that’s chosen for us to be expressive.It stops feeling expressive of me when someone else is making the decisions.
Right, in my example I don’t wear my wedding ring and I also am intermittent in wearing garments. If I had a cross necklace, I might wear it at sometimes and not on others. When I wear it it might be an outward expression that I am a Christian. On those times when I am not wearing it I am no less of a Christian. When I am not wearing my wedding ring, I am no less of a husband to my wife.
I fully agree that it seems strange and manipulative that we put this sort of effort into policing this.
April 15, 2024 at 10:35 pm #344965Anonymous
GuestQuote:13. Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
14. Do you honor your sacred privilege to wear the garment as instructed in the initiatory ordinances?
One thing I’ve heard a few people mention is that you never actually covenant to wear the garment during the endowment. It can be assumed that wearing them is included, but legalistically, you never specifically covenant to wear them. I wonder if that is part of the reason for the change in the question(s).
Either way, I don’t care for the question, however it’s worded. It’s awkward having middle-aged men ask you and your wife about your underwear selection. Concern over whether someone is wearing them or not is something that would fit right in with the Pharisees of Jesus’ time.
I agree that asking about them is manipulative. And culturally, the focus on them gives people a way to judge whether you’re being a good Morm- I mean, member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
🙄 April 16, 2024 at 3:02 am #344966Anonymous
GuestI like the former wording a lot better (except the reference to the endowment, since the garment instruction is in the initiatory) but I still can answer, “Yes,” to the actual questions. I can see the statements, legitimately, as guidance – and secondary to the questions. The main problem for many, I think, is that they won’t feel comfortable making that decision with the additional statements – and might have difficulty answering the questions with an honest, sincere, “Yes.” (given the statements)
April 16, 2024 at 4:15 am #344967Anonymous
GuestIMO, no one can completely wear the temple garments as instructed 100% of the time. Regardless of who they are or the activities they participate in. Once when I was talking to my Bishop during the TR interview, I answered “no”. I then clarified myself
and said: I don’t wear garments to my Doctor’s office or the Gym. He said that he didn’t as well. There is health
considerations that come up too, where you can’t wear them close to your skin.
I am not participating 100% of the time. I still answer yes during the interview. I refuse to feel guilty.
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.