The Spirit World–Who goes where?

Wonderful to hear from you, friend.

There are LOTS of unanswered questions about the pre-mortal and post mortal realm and I think we don’t know as much as we think we know.

However, my understanding of LDS doctrine (what we think we know) is that those that inhabit paradise are those that are righteous AND have the necessary ordinances.

Some thoughts to consider. We tend to think of paradise and prison as two separate places. Maybe they are states of mind. The righteous that have their necessary ordinances have a sense of calm and assurance – kinda like the the peace of mind you get with a home insurance policy. Perhaps, spirit prison is not a prison at all – but just a sense of insecurity and anxiety that come from not having the assurances of the necessary ordinances being completed.

You could make the case that the world in which we now live is also divided. Those LDS members that have been taught the gospel live in a sense of comfort and peace from the holy spirit. Those that are not members could be described as living in various states of darkness/prison/limitation due to lack of the fulness of the spirit and lack of clarity of correct knowledge.

This could be one reason why there seems to be a sense of urgency around performing temple work for the dead, in that it metaphorically “releases” them from that “prison” of insecurity and anxiety and replaces it with the calming, comforting, peaceful assurance of the holy spirit.

As always, I do not hold myself out to be an authoritative source for true doctrine but I do enjoy playing with the puzzle pieces and marvel at the different possibilities. Your mileage may vary.

Wonderful to hear from you, friend.

There are LOTS of unanswered questions about the pre-mortal and post mortal realm and I think we don’t know as much as we think we know.

However, my understanding of LDS doctrine (what we think we know) is that those that inhabit paradise are those that are righteous AND have the necessary ordinances.

Some thoughts to consider. We tend to think of paradise and prison as two separate places. Maybe they are states of mind. The righteous that have their necessary ordinances have a sense of calm and assurance – kinda like the the peace of mind you get with a home insurance policy. Perhaps, spirit prison is not a prison at all – but just a sense of insecurity and anxiety that come from not having the assurances of the necessary ordinances being completed.

You could make the case that the world in which we now live is also divided. Those LDS members that have been taught the gospel live in a sense of comfort and peace from the holy spirit. Those that are not members could be described as living in various states of darkness/prison/limitation due to lack of the fulness of the spirit and lack of clarity of correct knowledge.

This could be one reason why there seems to be a sense of urgency around performing temple work for the dead, in that it metaphorically “releases” them from that “prison” of insecurity and anxiety and replaces it with the calming, comforting, peaceful assurance of the holy spirit.

As always, I do not hold myself out to be an authoritative source for true doctrine but I do enjoy playing with the puzzle pieces and marvel at the different possibilities. Your mileage may vary.

Hello, Roy. Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I had hoped to come out of my meeting with the stake president’s counselor with a definitive response to my question. Unfortunately, he didn’t seem to be all that sure that what he was telling me was official Church policy. He kind of went back and forth between all righteous people being in Paradise and only those who had received the gospel. He told me he’d try to do a little bit of research and get back to me with an answer, which I thought was nice of him.

Your answer actually made more sense to me than anything he said. I’ve always assumed that both Paradise and the Spirit Prison are more states of mind than actual places and I asked him if he thought there might be some overlapping or merging of the two. He said he thought that was a reasonable assumption. He did point out that since Jesus Christ is the gate that leads us to our heavenly home, anyone who had not received the gospel (I’m assuming he meant the restored gospel), even if they were righteous, would feel held back or, as you say, limited in their progression. I think your second two paragraphs (the ones I’ve changed to boldface type) really say it all. I’m going to start to focus more on the idea of being held back from progressing as opposed to the suffering one might experience in the Spirit Prison, and I’m going to stress that both Paradise and the Spirit Prison are states of mind. A truly wicked person would undoubtedly suffer more mental anguish than a righteous person who just didn’t have all of the knowledge he needed to progress and was actively looking for it.

Again, your answer helped me a lot. Thanks a million for it!

Kathryn

I have a question that some of you may be able to shed some light on. I have always been taught that when we die, we go to the Spirit World to await our resurrection, and that the Spirit World is divided into two parts: Paradise and the Spirit Prison. When I google my question, “LDS Who goes to Paradise following death?” I get the following answer:

Righteous spirits go to paradise, which is “a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow” (Alma 40:12). The spirits of people who haven’t yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ are said to be in spirit prison (see 1 Peter 3:18–20).

Now that sounds to me as if the only “righteous spirits” are those of LDS people. It doesn’t come right out and say that, but it definitely implies it.

I read it differently.

CAVEAT: This is probably “proof texting” and my opinions on the questions at hand. What I am citing is what is specifically in this post with no additional biblical research or gospel teachings sorted out.

The 1 Peter quote states that Non-Christians (individuals who haven’t received the gospel of Jesus Christ aka aren’t followers of Jesus Christ) are in Spirit Prison, so the flip side is that “Christians are in Paradise“. Alma’s teaching refines it further that “Righteous individuals are in Paradise” (which is actually more expansive to include potential Non-Christians actually.).

The New Testament was talking to Christians (and potential Christians) about following Jesus Christ. Our culture accepts that and pulls out the “Christian – followers of Jesus Christ” bona fides regularly. Our culture appropriates and/or forgets that “the gospel of the Good News” is a fundamental part of the Christian umbrella that Mormonism is a variation of. I don’t think that Peter was saying “Future Mormons are the only Paradise inhabitants” (even though that church organization tends to interpret it that way).

For my part, everyone that has died that I was close to (a very small number) really needed “peace and quiet” of an existence no longer plagued by worldly cares or mortal hormones to sit within themselves and process a ton of stuff. I always view them as spending a lot of time alone in the quiet atmosphere of their choice (by a waterfall, in a garden, a grove, etc. Actually “The Good Place” makes sense to me in terms of some quiet spaces, small cottages, and a community center to balance introspection with connection to others.

I guess that I view the next life as 2 areas organized like “The Good Place” – maybe the activities are little different with the “Paradise” folks having more mobility to come visit “Spirit Prison” – but I don’t see them as being drastically different. The “work” in that afterlife is a balanced connection to family across generations (if possible), getting to know God, maybe harps/choir practice (if Christian theologians were right), and time for introspection/growth (how else would you “progress” or be prepared for “Judgement Day” [if that is even a thing?]).

I love our framing for one specific reason: It is MUCH better than the classic Heaven/Hell split. I see it even more loosely than divisions in a Spirit World and Degrees of Glory (simply as Eternal Progression), but I think the current framing is a good middle ground.

This is true. I love the teaching of eternal progression. Everyone can progress for as long as they want to. If they decide that they are done progressing and want to enter into a state of rest, then they can do that. Later on, once they have rested and are feeling a little ambitious, then they can change their mind and continue the path of progression.

I think that we, as humans, try to drive the behavior of other humans and that is why we end up with teaching like eternal damnation (or that this infinitesimally short lifespan determines where we spend eternity) for those that don’t do what we want them to do. We want to create a sense of urgency and a carrot/stick.

I know that most of the GA’s say that you can progress within a kingdom but that there is no movement from one kingdom to another. Personally, I don’t believe it would be eternal progression if that were the case. It will just take some people longer to get to where they really want to be than it will others. I’m pretty sure there is no official statement of doctrine on the subject.

Before the McConkie era (and through DOM’s tenure) it was commonly taught that we could progress through kingdoms. I’m not sure why the change except post DOM there was a time of retrenchment, correlation came into being, and the church became less open to different ideas and individualism. I think this was also a time when fear and guilt became weapons used by church authorities to keep people in line. Hence there remains some inconsistency in doctrine among those of us capable of critical and independent thought.

I know that most of the GA’s say that you can progress within a kingdom but that there is no movement from one kingdom to another. Personally, I don’t believe it would be eternal progression if that were the case. It will just take some people longer to get to where they really want to be than it will others. I’m pretty sure there is no official statement of doctrine on the subject.

Before the McConkie era (and through DOM’s tenure) it was commonly taught that we could progress through kingdoms. I’m not sure why the change except post DOM there was a time of retrenchment, correlation came into being, and the church became less open to different ideas and individualism. I think this was also a time when fear and guilt became weapons used by church authorities to keep people in line. Hence there remains some inconsistency in doctrine among those of us capable of critical and independent thought.

Thank you, DarkJedi. That’s very nice to know, and it’s new to me.

Which also begs another question for me — is it fair to judge a person for eternity on their experience in the “flash in the pan mortal existence” when we are here without complete information about so many questions that inform us about our eternal existence?

No, that isn’t fair. I feel that this is designed to maximize behavior results.

I agree it’s not fair. My husband and I made many decisions “under the influence of hormones” about 5-10 years ago that created massive trust breaches we are now beginning to resolve. We didn’t talk about our expectations properly because we assumed that the “gender-specific expectations” were “good enough”. We “paid attention” to the wrong markers and performed purposeless routines that papered over the structural chasm we were building.

RANDOM EXAMPLE:

My 15 year old has a different developmental time table then most teenagers we know. That time table allows her to make intellectual decisions on “the nature of God” and grapple with some parts of reality more easily. That time table also has specific delays.

My child has never been able to figure out what they want to eat quickly. They didn’t plot out “if I ask my mom for this food on the list I will be able to eat it – muahhahaha”. Or the “if I am nice to my mom, maybe they will be get extra ice cream”. That self-advocacy skill that allows them to recognize that if you ask for something on the grocery list (snack, meal-planning, whatever), your parents are likely glad to add it to the list and you can eat it… that skill that some 5 year old children develop.

Evidently, my oldest at 15 decided that this might be useful to test (I might have testily reminded her in an intense conversation previously and spent years at the “you need to take care of yourself and figure out what you need, what your body needs…”). She came and told me things she wanted to to add to the list in a nice way “to prove that she is a teenager who eats healthy food”.

I am overjoyed that she contributed to this week’s grocery list. The magnitude of my joy is probably comparable to the first time a child drives to the store and picks up the groceries, returns and puts them away for the family. This is a serious deal here. I know that the 2 points of comparison of child’s behavior (contributing to the list vs picking up the groceries) shows that behaviorally, they are worlds apart and do not require the equivalent amount of anything.

And I could care less.

DIVINE APPLICATION:

We care about the timeline of the development of our children because the generations parenting and grand-parenting the next generation(s) want to avoid some of the mistakes from the past, raise “good humans” to become the future care-takers and stewards (for ourselves, our society, and our legacy), and for biological reward of some sort. My 15 year old is painfully aware of what they cannot do and how far away from some of the common benchmarks they are. They want to knit a hair shirt of expectations to flog themselves into better self-worth, self-respect, and self-esteem with.

The older I get, the more I think that “the list” of commandments and expectations imposed on each of us by the culture(s) we intersect at [family, community, government, interests, orientations, career, job(s) we do at career, etc.] – that is just a random explicit list put together and put into the mouth of God as “Revelation” aka “God Said”.

I choose to believe that we do not have, know, or even have skimmed through what God expects from each of us. I don’t think that there is a literal list anymore (though society at large needs a specific list of ways to interact as a base level of interacting so that there is a next generation of humans).

What I hope is that the “spark” of my best self, my most generous ideas, the acts of “true love” that are authentic to me and to others in the situation – I hope that that is God touching my life. I hope that God grades me on the times that when I was connected in that way, not for the things I did/didn’t do. I hope to get “partial credit” for the “this is me trying” times when I did something to be connective half-heartedly, or started and then lost courage.