How can I cope with the idea that I and some of my loved ones won’t be allowed to be with their family in the next life?

Welcome and above all, thanks for sharing.

The very first thing that popped into my head was something I had heard over the years at church. I can’t find the quote anymore but it matches the sentiment of this quote that is purported to be from a personal letter from J. Reuben Clark to Milton H. Ross, 28 March 1951 [J. Reuben Clark

Papers]. I’ve only seen this quote appear in one place on a google search, that’s why I’m using the word purported.

I fear that some of us are going to be greatly surprised to see in the Celestial Kingdom a number of people that we would have assigned to a far lesser kingdom.

Or an alternate take on the same idea:

When you get to heaven you will likely view many folks whose presence there will be a shock to you;

But, take note, don’t even stare; doubtless there will be many folks surprised to see you there.

Believing in certainties about the afterlife can give us comfort but at the same time can can make us despair. The good news is that no one truly knows for certain what, if anything, an afterlife holds. Doubts about certainties relating to the afterlife can make us despair but at the same time can give us comfort.

I believe in a just and merciful god. Any attempt to limit god’s love and mercy feels more human than divine. At least to me.

You mentioned Fanny Alger. Do you ever find it funny that we can find so many issues with Joseph Smith’s personal character that it calls into question his ability to channel revelation yet at the same time we place a great deal of faith in his revelations about the particulars of attaining a specific afterlife?

Stated differently:

How do we know what the qualifications are to enter the celestial kingdom?

Through Joseph Smith.

Okay, but he got polygamy wrong didn’t he? What if he was wrong about the qualifications to enter the celestial kingdom as well?

Or stated more bluntly:

If Joseph Smith made it to the celestial kingdom, he set the bar very, very low for the rest of us.

When it comes to eternal families, I always fall back on my current relationship with my family. After all, this life is a part of eternity. Do I have my family now? If not, what can I do to regain them now? In this life.

I say this because I’ve seen some people on both sides of the fence (orthodox believers and people that leave the church) become estranged from family where church doctrines become the wedge. We have the doctrine of eternal families, not the doctrine of eternal church. In my opinion, if people are putting family before church then they’re well down the path to having an eternal family. Regardless of church membership.

What suggestions do you all have for me to help me be able to continue going to church like I’m striving to do without feeling utterly depressed nearly every time I go to church?

That’s a tough question. I know because I’ve been there. What helped me tremendously was some time away. I’m talking years off. There’s the quote, “you can’t heal in the environment that broke you.” It’s a generality, meaning it doesn’t hold true for everyone. Also, not everyone is in a position to take a break from church.

Another thing that helped me was taking some time to learn what I wanted out of my church experience. So much of the church experience is about conforming to the programs. It doesn’t have to be that way. It took time but I eventually learned what did and didn’t work out for me and setting and maintaining boundaries ultimately helped.

Just to reiterate, we’ve been taught that faith brings joy and doubt brings pain. I’d say that it depends on the things you’re believing in. Sometimes it’s the beliefs that bring pain and it’s the doubts that can open you up to more joyous revelations.

Those are the initial thoughts.

Thank you all for your responses and also simply just for being here on this forum.

1) Please do whatever you can to preserve your mental health. I don’t know what that looks like for you. Maybe talking to a counselor, maybe taking a break from the church meetings that make you feel that way, maybe just be scheduling extra “me” time doing what soothes and relaxes you.

Thanks so much for your kind concern, Roy. That means a lot. I’m doing my best to try to preserve my mental health—which was already poor, even before all this. I’m on the highest dose of Zoloft and use a SAD therapy lamp in the mornings, but I still have my challenges on that front. I had been seeing a counselor for awhile, but I still didn’t feel like I could fully open up and talk to her, because she wasn’t a member and wouldn’t quite understand all the things I wanted to talk about. I worried she might try to encourage me just to leave the Church and/or my husband. Eventually I stopped meeting with her. At the same time, I don’t know if it would work to talk to a counselor who IS a member, because they might not be aware of the historical issues I struggle with and think it’s just false, anti stuff and not understand where I’m coming from. I think just being able to open up and discuss things here will help be therapeutic for me.

2) My journey has led me to the conclusion that I get to decide if I will be with my family in the next life. This is probably a shocking statement but it is true for me. I know that my family relationships will endure and that is not dependent on how great I am at doing church stuff. I am personally focused on being a good husband and father such that, if given the choice, my family would WANT to be with me forever. I feel secure in my relationships with my God and My family.

3) Joseph’s revelations did not arrive dictated perfectly from God. There seems to be a fair amount of “feeling it out” and mental/emotional work to put the feelings down into words. I believe that some of what ended up on the page was a result of Joseph’s imagination, some his bravado, and some his desires. I think that Joseph developed a worldview where God was leading and speaking to him and this led him to Emma and to other important milestones in his life. He trusted his feelings to direct him in the things that he should do. Then he starts having feelings for Fanny. What does that mean? Why would God put those feelings there? Joseph wants to follow God. In pondering these things, Joseph is also thinking about OT prophets. If God and his moral standards are the same now and forever and OT prophets had multiple wives while still being holy men maybe that’s ok. Or maybe even God is trying to tell Joseph that having multiple wives is a HIGHER form of righteousness. Joseph prayed about it and came out with a revelation.

I do not have perfect knowledge of Joseph. I feel that my explanation of his introduction of polygamy fits a majority of what I consider to be evidence but I do not claim that it is the only interpretation. My explanation/interpretation provides me with a mental framework/narrative where polygamy was not commanded from God. It also attempts to be charitable to Joseph and those early church members in feeling that they were restoring God’s true church. They experimented with a few different things, some things worked well and some things didn’t. I can take the good and discard the bad.

Wow, thank you SO much for these insights! They really truly resonate with me. The idea that I get to choose to be with my family or not almost brought tears to my eyes. And I really like that mental framework / narrative regarding polygamy and also Joseph’s mode of revelation. That really sits so much better with me. Just curious, how do you personally view the first vision and other visitations/revelations like that in light of this framework? Do you personally believe that the first vision did in fact occur but that other written revelations were often more in the way that you described? Or what are your thoughts on that?

Thank you all for your responses and also simply just for being here on this forum.

1) Please do whatever you can to preserve your mental health. I don’t know what that looks like for you. Maybe talking to a counselor, maybe taking a break from the church meetings that make you feel that way, maybe just be scheduling extra “me” time doing what soothes and relaxes you.

Thanks so much for your kind concern, Roy. That means a lot. I’m doing my best to try to preserve my mental health—which was already poor, even before all this. I’m on the highest dose of Zoloft and use a SAD therapy lamp in the mornings, but I still have my challenges on that front. I had been seeing a counselor for awhile, but I still didn’t feel like I could fully open up and talk to her, because she wasn’t a member and wouldn’t quite understand all the things I wanted to talk about. I worried she might try to encourage me just to leave the Church and/or my husband. Eventually I stopped meeting with her. At the same time, I don’t know if it would work to talk to a counselor who IS a member, because they might not be aware of the historical issues I struggle with and think it’s just false, anti stuff and not understand where I’m coming from. I think just being able to open up and discuss things here will help be therapeutic for me.

I understand your concerns about therapists. Sometimes non-member therapists are very appropriate and sometimes they’re not. I don’t know where you live and you don’t need to disclose that if you don’t want to. In the Mormon Corridor there are some non-member therapists that do understand the church and the nuances involved with members. In the Corridor there are also member therapists who are familiar with faith crisis and are able to work with people in faith crisis without being judgmental. Of course, finding these therapists is the trick. Good non-member and member therapist exist outside the Corridor as well, but finding them is even trickier – but keep in mind Mormons are not the only ones who have crises of faith.

Just a side note about therapists: If a therapist is advising you to leave the church or divorce your spouse, find another one – that one is inappropriate (unless there are exigent circumstances). Stay away from the Jodi Hidebrandts.

– What helped me in that phase was learning to accept both parts as “true” in the way that a yin-yang symbol contains a bit of both to be properly balanced. The “church can be true and truthful” AND “have some dis-truths and drastic mistakes” for example. “Joseph Smith could have been inspired by God” and “have some really lousy ideas that were all about what he wanted imposed on others”.

Absolutely Amy, I like the innocuous example that is can be simultaneously true that the early bird gets the worm AND good things come to those who wait. Sometimes good happens to those that hustle, sometimes good happens to those that are patient.

You mentioned Fanny Alger. Do you ever find it funny that we can find so many issues with Joseph Smith’s personal character that it calls into question his ability to channel revelation yet at the same time we place a great deal of faith in his revelations about the particulars of attaining a specific afterlife?

Stated differently: How do we know what the qualifications are to enter the celestial kingdom? Through Joseph Smith.

Okay, but he got polygamy wrong didn’t he? What if he was wrong about the qualifications to enter the celestial kingdom as well.

It seems that there is a lot of “cognitive dissonance” going on for you about a lot of different topics (which is what defines a faith transition actually).

Both of you have hit it quite on the nose here. As I look back and read it, it looks like my introductory post gives a good representation of the split personality (so to speak) / cognitive dissonance I’m often experiencing.

I feel like I flip flop between two different versions of me in my mind.

I think part of the challenge is that my former self wasn’t just a member of the Church but I was an EXTREMELY active, dedicated, devout, believing member. I was that hyper-obedient, scriptorian, member who had a strong, burning testimony to share nearly every fast Sunday or Sunday School class; who had been a dedicated family history researcher since I was a teenager; that go-go-go, full-of-faith missionary who saw some of the most baptisms out of everyone in a very low-baptizing European mission. And the gung-ho missionary attitude continued post mission, and I was super involved with every behind-the-scenes element of serving in my ward(s) and with the missionaries. I even had a blog sharing my gospel study insights. And I loved it all. It made me so happy and full of life and spirited. It was probably 90% or so of my personal identity.

But with that 90% stripped away, who am I? Then the new me started immerging and it was everything opposite of the old me; everything the old me tried to prevent and fight against. And that old me still frequently whispers in my mind.

Part of me still believes and remembers all the things I considered to be strongly spiritual experiences and miracles or tender mercies. So that’s the part that thinks, “The scriptures say that what comes from the prophet comes from God; so polygamy and the degrees of glory are from God, whether I like it or not, so I just don’t like and disagree with God and therefore will be punished by him.”

Then there’s the new part of me that thinks, “Joseph Smith came up with polygamy on his own, so who knows what else (perhaps everything?) he came up with on his own. So it’s all just made up anyway.”

Either situation makes me wonder why I even bother going to Church. I wish I could just take some time away from church like some of you have mentioned, but my husband is in the bishopric, so I’m the one bringing the kids to church and I have to keep up the image that things are just as they always were. I don’t think my mental health could take the disappointment, pressure (well-intended I’m their minds), and persecution/harassment from friends, family, parents, in-laws, etc., that I’ve witnessed for others in my family who have stepped away from the Church.

I guess the old me especially gets reanimated at church, hearing all the familiar dialogues and I just feel ashamed and guilty that I’m no longer living up to that and being the “ideal” person I once was.

I guess I just need to figure out how to switch off that old self so that I keep going to church (that’s the goal—”Stay LDS,” right?) without feeling that personal connection that believes it’s all true and feels guilty for not living up to my old expectations of myself.

For me, letting go of the fear and guilt associated with the church or some church teachings was extremely freeing. Not everyone is able to do that.

What steps did you take to let go of that guilt? I’m a very easily -guilty person and need all the advice I can get on this front.

And how do I stop feeling angry about the judgmental comments surrounding the celestial kingdom, eternal families, “the covenant path” and all that? Even when I don’t necessarily believe those things, it’s still hard not to feel angry/depressed about the judgmental/exclusive remarks and how they refer to me and my amazing sister. I think I get subconsciously protective and defensive of her. At the same time, if I’m going to stay LDS like I want to, I need to figure out how to get rid of those feelings so each time I go to church isn’t miserable. (Sorry for the long ramble; it’s late and my brain is kinda all over the place; hopefully I’m kind of making some sense. 😛) Thanks again for all your input. I’ll respond to some of the other points later.

I don’t think my mental health could take the disappointment, pressure (well-intended I’m their minds), and persecution/harassment from friends, family, parents, in-laws, etc., that I’ve witnessed for others in my family who have stepped away from the Church.

I’ve certainly been there.

Church (and family) can be difficult when the discussion ventures into tearing people down. Especially when you can empathize with the group being torn down. More especially when you are a part of the group that’s being torn down and the people doing the tearing aren’t aware.

I try to be charitable. I tell myself that the “in” group gains some level of validation that they need by highlighting the differences in the “out” group. It still hurts though. If you’ll allow me to be a little judgmental…

When an orthodox member denigrates the doubter it may be more the case that they’re trying to justify to themselves all the sacrifices they’ve made for believing. Putting the doubter down is a roundabout way of elevating and justifying their life choices. The judgement we pass on others is more about ourselves than it is about what other people are doing. Myself included. 😳

I guess the old me especially gets reanimated at church, hearing all the familiar dialogues and I just feel ashamed and guilty that I’m no longer living up to that and being the “ideal” person I once was.

That “ideal” was given to you by someone else. What ideal would you give yourself?

It’s like a church calling. Here’s the calling the leaders stuck me with but what calling would I pick if given the choice?

Getting reanimated at church is perfectly normal and expected. All these years later and I still hear something triggering at church from time to time. That’s okay. Things ebb and flow.

I guess I just need to figure out how to switch off that old self so that I keep going to church (that’s the goal—”Stay LDS,” right?) without feeling that personal connection that believes it’s all true and feels guilty for not living up to my old expectations of myself.

I don’t really know what my goal of staying LDS is. I think maybe finding ways to mitigate negative thoughts and experiences while finding ways to accentuate the positive ones. For me that doesn’t translate to going to church every Sunday or always having a callings. I define my own boundaries, where my boundaries are things that can help make the church experience a positive one for me. Feeling that out is an ongoing process.

And how do I stop feeling angry about the judgmental comments surrounding the celestial kingdom, eternal families, “the covenant path” and all that?

I hope people come along with better experiences than mine, but I say be angry. It’s okay to feel angry, there’s nothing wrong with that. In my opinion it’s a part of the healing process. That said, I don’t think it’s a good idea to take permanent residency in an anger stage but it’s okay to experience anger and even let it run its natural course. Meaning that stage can last a while and it’s hard to know when that stage will end.

Like I mentioned above, there are times where things at church will trigger me. It’s okay to not be perfect, to not have completely transcended getting angry. Heck, some things should get people angry. 🙂

Sometimes I find it helpful to bail out of the meeting or conference talk. Just leave the room. People do it all the time for reasons varied and unknown.

“If that guy says covenant path one more time, so help me…”

“Covenant Path.”

[internal scream, time to get up and go powder my nose]

I very much identify with many things shared by Chamelea, Nibbler, and Amy. I’ll limit my comment to just one part.

I guess I just need to figure out how to switch off that old self so that I keep going to church (that’s the goal—”Stay LDS,” right?) without feeling that personal connection that believes it’s all true and feels guilty for not living up to my old expectations of myself.

I don’t really know what my goal of staying LDS is. I think maybe finding ways to mitigate negative thoughts and experiences while finding ways to accentuate the positive ones. For me that doesn’t translate to going to church every Sunday or always having a callings. I define my own boundaries, where my boundaries are things that can help make the church experience a positive one for me. Feeling that out is an ongoing process.

[SNIP]

Church (and family) can be difficult when the discussion ventures into tearing people down. Especially when you can empathize with the group being torn down. More especially when you are a part of the group that’s being torn down and the people doing the tearing aren’t aware.

I try to be charitable. I tell myself that the “in” group gains some level of validation that they need by highlighting the differences in the “out” group. It still hurts though. If you’ll allow me to be a little judgmental…

When an orthodox member denigrates the doubter it may be more the case that they’re trying to justify to themselves all the sacrifices they’ve made for believing. Putting the doubter down is a roundabout way of elevating and justifying their life choices. The judgement we pass on others is more about ourselves than it is about what other people are doing. Myself included. 😳

I think that the mission of StayLDS is to give LDS people in the midst of a faith crisis support, time, and space while the figure out for themselves where they will land. Mormonism will always be a part of you, no matter what. Some find relative success continuing to go to the LDS church with new boundaries and coping mechanisms, etc. This is not an easy task and some have found that their mental health is better served by not attending (or at least limiting attendance, I personally am pretty good with SM but have more trouble with SS or priesthood meetings). It can feel like visiting enemy territory where your thoughts and boundaries are constantly attacked and challenged.

One technique that might help is assuming the perspective of an anthropologist researcher imbedded with a tribe from the amazon rain forest. What do they believe? How does it provide meaning and enrichment for their lives? How beautiful! Why are they so dogmatic and rigid about their beliefs being the only true way? Interesting! Why are their teachings seemingly so hostile towards outsiders? Fascinating!

It reminds me of a Richard Bushman quote about some scriptures where God promises retribution (genocide in graphic detail) upon the enemies of his people. Brother Bushman said something to the effect that he tries to be charitable to people that lived in a time, place, and cultural environment that they would take comfort in their God doing that to their enemies. It is not easy, but we can try to be charitable to people that gain value in tearing down the “out” group to gain comfort, affirmation, and validation for their path as a member of the “in” group. We love them. We were them. In some ways we still are them. We all crave validation. It can be tempting to frame traditional LDS believers as less intelligent, and that those of us that see differently are somehow smarter, better even. Humans are going to human, after all, and group dynamics continue no matter what the group is.